----- Original Message -----

From: Fando911@aol.com

To: dlim@interlog.com

Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 2:42 PM

Subject: APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

Fando: Dear preacher David Lim,

D. Lim: Let this little "preacher" say a few already spoken word of the Bible.

Fando: You said, "Apostolic succession is not in Scripture even by implication." Another Protestant, Tim Dunkin, said, "Jesus actually denied the existence of apostolic succession.". There is no mention in Scripture Jesus denied it. In fact, there are biblical implicit/explicit passages and/or images, such as, apostle (representative), covenant (pact), church (visible) foundation (durability/stability), etc., linked to the subject, suggesting continuity of authority passed on to one generation to another..

D. Lim: Images are not pictures. Images are reflection of the real thing, often incomplete, distorted and non-substantial. With this overtone Fando is carrying out his RC assault on the Christian Truth.

Didn�t Jesus called 12 and Peter affirmed this in Acts. Jesus also called Apostles direct, such as: Paul and Silas and Barnabas. Note that they are not students or successors of the 12, RC priests, merely overseers of local churches.

So, even at the beginning, it is established that Apostles do not succeed Apostles.

Apostles establish overseers, such as Paul commissioning Timothy who run around and being sent by Paul, and Titus. Note that they were overseers, elders; and not Apostles. They did not succeed Paul to become Apostles. Case closed!

Apostle representative is not Apostle. A Rep is an agent.

Covenant of Divine nature is in reality between God and creatures.

The 12 did not make a pact to produce Apostles to succeed them. The 12 were gone when they were gone. No one left after John.

The church had evangelists, but no humanly directed Apostles after the 12.

Paul did not instruct Timothy and Titus to establish Apostles. Surely overseers have to do the work of evangelist and preach around. They are sent by the laying on of hand/s; yet this sending forth does not equate Apostleship. They did not become Apostles or carry such title automaticly.

The same word can have different meanings depending on usage. RCs have priests; yet these priests do not equate Christians or Biblical priests. Same number of words, same pronounciation, same spelling, yet different.

D. Lim: There are Apostles nowadays. They are not anointed and commissioned by men. And they are not popes and RC bishops.

D. Lim: Also, Prophets are commissioned by God directly. Eg: Isaish, Elijah, Moses, Enoch.

Surely Elijah and Jeremiah had students and apprentices. It is God who confirms them and empower them. Elisha did not rely on the studentship of Elijah. He chased after Divine empowerment.

Fando: Apostle means "one sent" and any one sent (appointed) by God or to a successor of one appointed by God, delegating authority, i.e., anointed king, prophet, angel, rabbi, apostle, disciple, elder, deacon, presbyter, bishops, minister, pastor, priest.

D. Lim: The same word can have different meanings depending on usage. RCs have priests; yet these priests do not equate Christians or Biblical priests. Same number of words, same pronounciation, same spelling, yet different.

Anointed kings, prophets, angels rabbis, elders, deacons are not Apostles. They are different positions and commission.

Each gift and position is given separately.

Fando: In the Hebrew Scripture, God not only sent prophets, He also established a covenant with Abraham, who passed it on to his successors, who passed it on to Moses, who appointed successors, the Twelve Tribes of Israel.

D. Lim: So, even prophets were sent. Even prophets are sent without the title of Apostle. Note that the term Apostle first appear in the Greek New Testament.

This Divine covenant of the Old Testament does not include the setting up and commissioning of Apostles. The geneaology of Abraham does not include everybody. Blessings of lineage is not automatic. That is why the later had supersedded the former. That is also why Protestants have supersedded Catholics in receiving Grace and Promises of God. That is why RCs are left out of the Church.

We see that Saul and David became king by not being successors of Moses or Joshua. We saw that Caleb did not succeed Moses. We see that David did not come from Aaron. The Leviticus line does not come down to David, and Jesus, and Peter.

There are 12 tribes, and Jesus Christ did not come from the greatest one. Jesus is no Rubenite. And Bethlehem is not a great city. Nazareth is small, and people doubt if any prophet could come from this city.

Fando: The following are some OT passages that refer to succession:

D. Lim: Are we changing subject to succession now? I guess that RCs have ever-changing reasoning for swayful expression.

Fando: In Exodus 28:41 "And thou shalt put them (coat/mitre) upon Aaron thy brother, and his sons (succession) with him and shalt anoint them, and consecrate them, and sanctify them, that they may minister unto me in the priest's office." KJV

D. Lim: Similar instruction is not given in the New Testament for succession. According to the Book of Revelation, even a whole church can be extinguished by the Angel. Succession ends there. No birthright may count. No anointing oil and laying on of hands may count.

Fando: Exodus 29:29 "And the holy garments of Aaron shall be his sons' after him." (succession)

D. Lim: Aaron is no Apostle. The OT priestly succession depends on ritual and the special anointing oil. RCs do not have that. No pope is enthroned with this anointing. Popes are no Levitical priests. One just does not equate others. No remote resemblance.

Fando: Leviticus 16:32-33 "And the priest, whom he shall anoint, and whom he shall consecrate to minister in the priest's office in his father's stead." (succession)

D. Lim: Sadly RCs are no Levite. This covenant does not apply to them.

And the line broke at least after 70AD.

The recontinuation of Levitical priests after the Maccabees demonstrated that the line of succession was not unbroken, and yet the ministry is rekindled and acknowledged by Christ and Jews of their time.

Spiritual succession depends on Divine appointment; and not even on blood line.

Yet, RCs like to enslave the whole world into submitting to a particular laying on of particular human hands!

Apostles were no Levitical priests. They were not even trained to be Levitical priests.

Levitical priesthood is no apostolic succession.

Fando: Another method of God's appointment (succession) is by the "laying of hands."

D. Lim: Appointment does not equate succession. This is a fundamental truth.

When God appoint some prophets and kings they did not become God (succeed Yhwh). Simple truth!

When RCs claimed that some RC priest succeeded the apostles and have authority to rule the world and the church, we know that is a simple lie; although grossly exergerated.

Fando: Numbers 27:21-22 "And the Lord said to Moses, 'Take Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit, and lay your hand upon him...' v22 And Moses did as the Lord commanded him; he took Joshua and caused him to stand before Eleazar the priest and the whole congregation, and he laid his hands upon him, and commissioned him (succession) as the Lord directed."

D. Lim: And Joshua is no Levite. So 2 lines of ministers. Yet RCs want their own line of rulers to rule/lord over everybody!

Joshua the son of Nun, a man in whom is the spirit ---The deciding factor.

The priest laid hands on him without making him succeeding priesthood.

D. Lim: Divine direction is the prior factor. Yet RCs are telling the world that Christians (they so like to call Protestants) are not so legitimate as the Catholics of the popes, without their kind of laying on of hands, commissioning/appointment, and authorisation.

D. Lim: Divine direction is the prior factor. Charismatic Catholics are late to cling to that. Pre-Charismatic Catholics and non-Charismatic Catholics are even slower and so very late and follow Christians for Divine claims and supernatural acts(eg: healing, exocism, raising of the dead).

D. Lim: Note also, the whole congregation was there, symbolising their consent. No singleness of popery.

Numbers 27v23: And he laid his hands upon him, and gave him a charge, as the LORD commanded by the hand of Moses.

At his word shall they go out, and at his word they shall come in, both he, and all the children of Israel with him, even all the congregation.

When will RCs listen to God?

Fando: Deut 34:99 "...so the people of Israel obeyed him (Joshua) and did as the Lord commanded Moses."

D. Lim: As the Lord commands. Authority does not automatically come from any ritual or succession or claim.

Fando: When Moses was done, Joshua took over the Tribe (succession)

D. Lim: Interesting that God is left out of the picture/idea. Interesting that we came to the age of Judges when people do what is right in their own sight.

Judges 21 v25: In those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes.

No succession!

Furthermore, we see the first appearance of kingship. No succession! Judges did not turn to kings. They are Divinely apointed and anointed.

Even prophets do not succeeded judges and kings not succeeding prophets. King David had to ask for Nathan. And Israelite prophets such as Jeremiah were not regarded or treated as kings. They just do not cross. No Bastards! No mutant!

Do not live X-men. Get real!

Do not live immoral lives.

Fando: In the New Testament, we see this continuity (succesion) in Jesus Christ, who established His new covenant [Lk 22:20], chose the Twelve Apostles to be "shepherds of the church of God" [Acts 20:28], and He said to them, "I have been given all authority in heaven and on earth. Go, then, to all peoples everywhere and make them my disciples...and teach them to obey everything I have commanded you." [Mt 28:10-20]. Christ's church is the "foundation of the apostles." [Eph 2:20] the "twelve foundation stones." [Rev 21:14]

D. Lim: Jesus was not acknowledged to be succeeding any priesthood or prophethood by the majority of Jews and priests.

Continuity of Israelite history is not succession of some line of human authority. (eg: right after Solomon, the country was splitted into 2. The State of Israel reappeared in the 20^th century after 70AD by the UN)

God is the Rock, fortress and foundation of all the people of God.

Eph 2v20: And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;

And no Virgin Mary mentioned here!

Christ being the corner stone set Himself first on the platform.

This metaphor does not imply greatness of the foundation stones. Otherwise the corner stone would be overshadowed by the other stones.

Interesting to see that the foundation of prophets are left out in the picture of popery, as if prophets are outdated by apostles, not noting that there were prophets with the apostles.

Rev 21v14: And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.

This metaphor left Paul, Barnabas and many apostles out.

This Jewish symbolism also leaves Italian and Polish popes out.

Fando: In Acts 1:20 "May another take his office" in Matthias and the following disciples being added to bolster the young Church in stephen, Philip, Prochorus, Nicanor,Timon, Parmenas, and Nicolaus. This group presented them to the apostles, who prayed and laid their hands on them. [Acts 6:5] Then along came Barnabas and Saul (Paul), the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them...They (apostles) laid their hands on them and sent them off." [Acts 13:2-3]

Acts 1v26: And they gave forth their lots; and the lot fell upon Matthias; and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.

D. Lim: Paul was already apostolic before he came to meet up with the 12. (Acts 9v6, 12, 16, 17)

Ananias laid hand on Paul and sent him. No Peter or the 12 at work here right at the beginning.

Acts 9v17: And Ananias went his way, and entered into the house; and putting his hands on him said, Brother Saul, the Lord, even Jesus, that appeared unto thee in the way as thou camest, hath sent me, that thou mightest receive thy sight, and be filled with the Holy Ghost.

1Corinthians 1v1: Paul called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God.. . .

Fando: We see Paul, among others, recruited Timothy and Titus.

To Timothy, "Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the council of elders laid their hands upon you. [1 Tim 4:15-16]

D. Lim: It was the RCs who played copycats after the Charismatic Movement, and Charismatic Catholics came rather late upon the scene. A negligence of any such gifts for more years than any others?

Now the council of elders or eldership or presbytry is not apostles or apostlship. They are not called that way. Neither is the word apostle forming any part of these names(council of elders or eldership or presbytry).

Fando: "Do not be hasty in the laying of hands, nor participate in another man's sins." [1 Tim 5:22]

D. Lim: Taking pre-texts does not right one�s mistakes. If Timothy succeeded Paul, and more disciples succeeded Timothy; then, by the same logic, other successors also branched out from the 12 � then, we ought to have millions of successors/apostles todays.

Being instructed by Paul does not make Timothy, or any disciple successors or Apostolic authority/ministry.

Fando: "Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying of my hands." [2 Tim 1:6]

D. Lim: We are all apostles if apostles are just made by the laying on of hands.

Pretending to have the gift of God (charismata) does not enable the popes to be healers, exocists, snake handlers, prophets….

Fando: "Take the teaching that you heard me proclaim in the presence of many witnesses, and entrust to reliable people who will be able to teach others also." [2 Tim 2]

D. Lim: Timothy was never made a apostle or called as such. So are Clement of Rome and Clement of Alexander. The 12 were never succeeded with another 12. Neither were Paul and Barnabas succeeded by 2 other apostles.

Fando: To Titus, "...appoint elders in every town as I directed you." [Titus 1:5-9]

"...exhort and reprove with all authority. Let no one disregard you." [ 2:15]

D. Lim: Elders are not apostles. They spell and pronounce differently.

Fando: The written testament of the early Church Fathers, John, the apostle recruited Polycarp, who recruited Ignatius and Iraneous; Peter, the first bishop of Rome and the succession of bishops up to the current bishop and pope, John Paul II.

Acts 2v10,11: Phrygia, and Pamphylia, in Egypt, and in the parts of Libya about Cyrene, and strangers of Rome, Jews and proselytes,

These people at the day of Pentecost became Christians, while the 12 stayed in Jerusalem. None of the 12 splitted up into more bodies to oversee foreign churches. Paul and Barnabas were sent to the Gentiles; not the 12. Romans were no Jew. They were Gentiles.

Acts 23v11: And the night following the Lord stood by him, and said, Be of good cheer, Paul: for as thou hast testified of me in Jerusalem, so must thou bear witness also at Rome.

Who succeed the line of Paul from Rome?

No indication from Scriptures that Peter went to Rome first and became a bishop there. Succession of bishops of any sort is no Apostolic Succession. Bishops are not Apostles. Simple fact and truth.

Fando: As far as I know, none of the Protestant Reformers and scholars, who studied Church history, ever questioned apostolic succession.

D. Lim: Know or imagined, or refuse to accept the reality?

I am no follower of any Protestant Reformer or scholar. No need to.

Fando: Peace be with you,

Fernando

----- Original Message -----

From: Azusa@aol.com

To: Fando911@aol.com

Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 3:05 PM

Subject: Re: APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

Azusa : it is more important to be a saved Christian and become a true child of Christ. If you have not accepted Christ as the Son of God, and that He is the only way, not works not purgatory, not baptism, etc then all the Apostolic Succession in the world will not save your Soul.

D. Lim: That�s it. The priority is in coming to Christ first. This is The Word of God. Sadly RCs missed that. They just do not have light, and are still in darkness.

----- Original Message -----

From: Fando911@aol.com

To: Azusa@aol.com ; dlim@interlog.com ;

Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 1:01 PM

Subject: Re: APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

Let's cover the basics and not hindsight. Without apostolic succession you wouldn't know what it means to be a Christian, delivered to us through the authority of the Catholic Church. Remember it is through the authority of the Catholic Church that assembled and protected from error the canons of what is today known as Scripture which you are a beneficiary. It is through baptism that we become a Christian. In Christ, our ongoing faith working in love, through his grace, we hope to be saved.

In his and his mother's love,

Fernando

----- Original Message -----

From: Azusa@aol.com

To: Fando911@aol.com ; dlim@interlog.com ;

Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 2:00 PM

Subject: Re: APOSTOLIC SUCCESSION

Azusa : Titus 3:3-11, "For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient,

deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy,

hateful, and hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of

God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which

we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of

regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us

abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his

grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. This

is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly,

that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good

works. These things are good and profitable unto men. But avoid foolish

questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;

for they are unprofitable and vain. A man that is an heretick after the

first and second admonition reject; Knowing that he that is such is

subverted, and sinneth, being condemned of himself."

D. Lim: The Israelites, including Joshua, took Jericho. That does not make them heirs of Jericho or the moon cult.

King David and the Israelites, including Joab, took Jebus/Jerusalem. That does not make them heirs of the Jebusites and their culture. And the Jebusites got Salem/Jerusalem from Melchizedek. That did not make them heirs of grace and peace.

This is not just basic, but fundamental.

The Word of God abides forever.

It was the Canaanites who tilled the land of Canaan, and God gave it to the Israelites. Israelites are not recognised as Canaanites or Palestinians. Such a simple fact and reasoning.

I eat fish and chicken. That does not make me fish and chicken. I subdued them and used them. They had not subdued me or used me to my end. Such a simple fact and reasoning.

Now, the RC liars are telling the world that by being custodians of some holy scriptures, all users of holy scriptures own them their origin.

But avoid foolish questions, and genealogies, and contentions, and strivings about the law;

for they are unprofitable and vain.

Roman Catholics benefited from some Holy Scriptures. That does not make them saved or born again Christians. They are still idolators.

Is it through baptism that we(Roman Catholics and any one) become a Christian?

In Grace are we saved through Faith. And Christians have and need two baptisms. (ie: water and the Spirit).