We therefore do sever all links with Abba Ministries of Canada, and all other forms of this ministry with any of its representative, as from this day 17 July 2002 on, in accordance with the directives of the Holy Christian Bible.

Our anointing is from God and of God. You keep your own secular ordination and rules.

We would rather obey God than men.

Perfect love casts out fear.

The end does not justify the means. And it never does.

Training, directorate, College and degree, certification, insurance are all unBiblical in the Holy Christian Bible and Christian Church; not that we do not have qualification, degree, experience, and training.

2Timothy3v16:

3:16 All scripture is God breathed, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

Yours are not studying and understanding all scripture. And all scripture does not include just some courses, certificates, directorate, college, degree, institutional approval, annual renewal and insurance.

Your one or two courses (may it be 3 or more in the future), the degrees and certification/qualification you hold/obtained, simply do not perfect any man(including yourselves).

Matthew28 : (The Great Commission)

28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

The God given qualification for all Christians to preach, witness Christ/God, to speak to all nations is that all power is given to Christ Jesus. Not that they are trained or having done certain courses.

None of your courses (in fact, any course) and degrees/qualification, credit, and insurance can be teaching all Christians to observe all things whatsoever Christ Jesus has commanded Christians.

Notice the complete lack of courses, and secular qualification mentioned in the Great Commission.

Our Lord guarantees His presence. Your courses and qualification do not.

Think of the multitude you hurt with your false witness and your courses/training. We wish to have no part in this.

Evangelism is the duty of all Christians. Getting trained or certified to evangelise and to talk to anybody is not even Scriptural. Our Lord and Apostles never instructed that. The Samaritan woman never did that. The healed sinners and poor people never did that. Abraham, Jacob, Moses, all Kings, Job, John the Baptist, our Lord, Gospel writers, Apostles, deacons never did that.

Christ says in Acts 1:

1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

The Holy Spirit and His baptism is certainly not represented by your courses, certification, and qualification, and is not insurance and annual renewal. This power is not inventing lesser qualification and ability of your Christian brethren and Churches, for you to lord over them.

We think you are wrong in advocating that ability, recognition and power and authority come from institutes, training, certification, and courses from those who do not even pass integrity test themselves. (I would not even let/allow you to get near my family. Counseling us is a non-starter for you. Your qualification does not matter a bit.)

Isaiah 30:

30:15 For thus saith the Lord GOD, the Holy One of Israel; In returning and rest shall ye be saved; in quietness and in confidence shall be your strength: and ye would not.

In matters pertaining to our Most Holy Faith, Scriptures(The Word of God) never directs or instructs anyone to buy insurance in cash for His Work. The Lord is our Fortress; in Him we have peace of mind, absolute security. Nevermind false brethren, imprisonment, persecution and unjust verdict.

No one is made perfect through some courses or training. We do not assume or assert that the mass can not and is not hurt by trained professionals. The graduated are not, by default, educated; neither are these people deemed honest. (Meetings, arrangement, and communication with you demonstrated this very well.)

Ecclesiastes 12:

12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.

12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hello David,

I would rather have said these things in a private conversation but

since you have raised the issue here in public in this way then I will

simply answer you here.

I have spent the best part of yesterday and today talking with

Delores, praying, searching in the Word, etc. I have sent a few emails from

Delores place as well trying to discuss certain things with people. The

things that John Bonesteel and William Jones have both said not only do I

agree with completely but as far as I'm concerned they should be the party

line.

The only way ANYBODY should be doing counseling is if they are

trained and accredited. If someone is not both trained and accredited then

they should refer to person to someone who is. If you as a pastor would

allow just anyone and everyone to counsel others you are opening yourself,

the church you pastor, those within that church as well as each and every

church within Abba Ministries right up to a class action lawsuit. They can

take your house, and everything else you own, both now and for the rest of

your life and have the courts decide that you as a pastor allowed this and

that Abba Ministries as a whole allowed this and then each and every church

is gone simply because one untrained person, no matter how well meaning or

good intentioned, gave them advise that lead to a marriage breakup or lose

of a job or whatever.

I will not allow Abba Ministries or any of it's member churches to

be open to such a dangerous position simply because one person did not want

to come in line. Between the advise of other pastors, my wife, the BoD, the

insurance companies, the Corporations Directorate, Revenue Canada, and more,

ALL of them hold the same position. Anyone doing counseling MUST be both

trained and certified or they should not be doing counseling. As such we are

developing courses, in conjunction with college professionals that I have

known for years. Every pastor within Abba Ministries will HAVE TO do at

least these two courses and get certified with a national group like the

naiic. Their website is at http://christbasedcounseling.org/ Anyone who does

counseling, a pastor or someone within a local body that has the pastors

consent to counsel, according to the powers that be to whom even I must

submit, will have to pass these courses and get certified. If they don't

then they should not be allowed to counsel.

Anyone can console others, can sympathize with them over what

they've been through. It is my heartfelt desire that we all should console

others and help them to get through the things they are dealing with in a

healthy way. It takes alot of heart and alot of guts to work through, for

example, the death of a child with someone and it is best done by someone

who's been through it. Believe me I've been there. I've had to bury more

than one of my own children and having people, no matter how well meaning

come up to you and say "I'm sorry" or "I know how you feel" is such a crock.

Unless you've been there yourself you don't know how I feel. As for saying

"I'm sorry" the first thought in my head at that time is "why did you have

something to do with it?" All you feel is the pain and the loss. All you

want to do is scream or cry or both - been there, done that and believe me

it hurts like hell. Those who've been there are the only ones that should be

consoling others who are there now.

As for counseling we are getting courses ready and I want each

pastor within Abba Ministries to send in a list as to who they want under

their covering to be allowed to counsel including themselves. These people

will be REQUIRED to pass the courses and get certified. If not then they

will not be able to do counseling with the blessing of Abba Ministries. If

you can agree with this and work along with it fine, great, if not then your

only option is to resign from within Abba Ministries so that no other pastor

will have to assume legal responsibility for your lack of obedience and your

lack of professional training. I am sorry if that is a harsh statement but I

would rather upset one or two pastors or counselors than to have how many

hundreds of lives damaged by untrained people.

Think about it, pray about it and then let me know your decision.

Take care and God bless,

Douglas Southcott, Bishop

Abba Ministries of Canada

http://www.abba.ca

-----Original Message-----

From: dlim@interlog.com [mailto:dlim@interlog.com]

Sent: Monday, July 15, 2002 4:21 PM

To: Abba-Pastors@topica.com

Subject: Re: multiple questions

Whose ANSWER is this?

I hope this is not the official answer of ABBA. Would Doug. please verify.

This is a very poor trial and offensive and divisive.

Should I take this very lightly and just leave it as a reply of a brother?

David Lim

----- Original Message -----

From: "Pastor William Jones" <rockman@ntl.sympatico.ca>

To: <Abba-Pastors@topica.com>

Sent: Saturday, July 13, 2002 6:43 PM

Subject: multiple questions

> -----Original Message-----

> From: dlim@interlog.com [mailto:dlim@interlog.com]

>

> How would a church be covered when all Christians are priests,

> counselling Who so ever approaches them?

>

> ANSWER---A church would more than likely have to submit a list of those

> who they wish to have covered under the insurance or it would be a

> blanket policy which would cover all. It is very foolish if not

> dangerous for any person not trained for counseling to engage in such

> practice for even the smallest mistake could have far reaching

> circumstances for either of the parties involved.

>

> In my assembly, all adults are in fact counsellors with experience as

> well.So far no body in the congregation expresses any desire for

> certification or insurance coverage.

>

> ANSWER---Maybe you or your members may think that they all have the

> proper experience but this is foolhardy. It sounds like a case of the

> blind leading the blind comforted by their own vanity and

> self-indulgence. " MY ASSEMBLY" shouldn't that be "OUR" assembly ? I

> would suggest that they do indeed seek the proper credentials and

> insurance or else if they and yourself are ever sued you would be torn

> apart in court. Did you explain the ramifacations of not being insured

> or certified or are you one that sits back and doesn't want to rock the

> boat with new ideas."COMPLACENCY"

>

> I do not mind having insurance coverage for myself, if the cost is not

> high - say within $100.

>

> ANSWER---What price do you put on the rest of your life, the stability

> of family and the continuance of His ministry

>

> But we must not put Christians down as immature laymen, just because

> they do not have insurance coverage or not certified.

>

> ANSWER--- I have not heard of any person being put down or called

> immature because they are not certified or insured but I would suggest

> that anyone who does counseling be prepared to meet the consequences if

> they are not. I would not want to be counseled by some person who only

> means well but does not have a clue of what my needs are and how to help

> me in the long term. The road to hell is paved with the best of

> intentions.The answers to many of life's questions may be found in

> scripture but untrained persons who profess knowledge are usually the

> most dangerous of all.

>

> Bureaucracy is also dangerous in the long run, inducing complacency, and

> twisted sense of extra church extra congregational overseeing

> legislating bodies.

>

> ANSWER---Bureaucracy only becomes complacent when the members involved

> cease to be informed and included in the day to day affairs of whichever

> church or ministry they are a part of. It becomes dangerous when the

> decisions to be made are not carried by the majority and left to the few

> due to the complacency of its members. Maybe the pastor, reverend etc

> of that congregation should look at his own way of inspiring his members

> to be more involved in the operation of the church or ministry so this

> does not happen.

>

> Also questions concerning how many denominations in and outside Canada

> encourage such insurance or stipulate one ought to be examined and

> considered.

>

> ANSWER---I really would not be to concerned how many others have

> insurance or certification. I would be more interested in having our

> house in proper order so things are the way He would approve of.

>

> Professional indemnity insurance is normally a very very heavy burden

> Something not to be encouraged.

>

> ANSWER---I carry two million in liability insurance and contrary to

> being a burden it gives one peace of mind knowing that should some

> unfortunate circumstance arise we would not be at peril in losing all

> that the members have worked for and supported. We shall be able to

> continue in His ministry. It is not that expensive considering what the

> other consequences could be.

>

>

> Pastor William Jones

> TIMMINS STREET REACH

> Helping others through kindness of thought and deed

>

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