A Evangelical doctrine - expressed in a Pastoral letter
At 11:20 PM 11/28/99 -0600, you wrote:
>ChristRing Ministries -
>November 1999 Pastoral Letter
>
>Dear Brothers and Sisters,
>
>In this month's letter we will be addressing an
>issue that is uncomfortable for many of us.
>Homosexuality and abortion and the Church.
>
>THE SIN - 1CO 6:9 Know ye not that the unrighteous
>shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not
>deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
>adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of
>themselves with mankind, 1CO 6:10 Nor thieves, nor
>covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor
>extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
>
>THE SINNER - JOH 8:10 When Jesus had lifted up
>himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto
>her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath
>no man condemned thee? JOH 8:11 She said, No man,
>Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I
>condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
>
>There is an old Christian adage, "Love the sinner
>and hate the sin." Most of us who call ourselves
>by the Name of Christ profess to agree with this
>concept (it is Biblical after all);
D. Lim : Wrong! This is not biblical.
Read Psalm 119 at least.
- I hate those with a perfect hatred.
How perfect is your partial selection?
>however, as
>often as not I see quite something different in
>our lives and attitudes towards others. Especially
>so towards those involved in the more "evil" sins
>like Homosexuality and Abortion. Make no mistake,
>the Gay and Lesbian lifestyle is indeed serious
>sin and terribly destructive to all involved in
>it, and abortion is murder. However, before God,
>sin is sin, and "If we confess [repent of] our
>sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our
>sins..." (1 John 1:9). Yes, Christians are to hate
>sin, but no matter how evil we perceive a
>particular sin, it is no excuse for Christians to
>dehumanize/demonize and attack the persons
>involved.
>
Old wineskin cannot contain new wine.
>I was truly blessed to read of Dr. Jerry Falwell's
>conference at Liberty University last month. While
>I do not agree with Dr. Falwell's approach to many
>issues, it is times like this that I am indeed
>proud to call him brother. Dr. Falwell put his
>faith into action by first repenting of much of
>his former speech and behavior that had been aimed
>not at the sin but at the individual sinners. He
>then, without compromising the truth of the Word,
>opened a true loving dialogue intended to heal the
>hatred on both sides, while exposing the truth of
>the Gospel to the homosexual community. May each
>of us go and do likewise.
>
There is no forgiveness without repentance.
There is no justification by pre-faith.
>Bible believing Christians must follow Dr.
>Falwell's example and stop hating homosexuals and
>abortionists just because of the particular sin
>they are practicing. We do not hate our children
>because/when they live together in sexual
>immorality. Nor do we hate the drunk or the drug
>user. While we should rightfully hate these sins,
>we do not even consider hating the sinner. Instead
>we do all we can to express Christ's love to them
>and to help them give up the sinful behavior. The
>church must begin approaching the more "evil" sins
>of homosexuality and abortion in the same manner.
>
Resist the devil, or resist sin alone?
Did Christ call Peter to get behind Him or to get his sin behind Him?
>When was the last time you invited a "gay"
>acquaintance or co-worker to church? Do you bake
>cookies and take them to your local abortion
>clinic with simple Gospel (not anti-abortion)
>tracts? God's loving truth will conquer sin much
>more quickly then militancy and hatred (1 Peter
>3:9). Think about it.
>
So Christ called certain people white washed tombs and walls. Exposure first? Or cover up?
>It is true that believers must NEVER condone, or
>worse, endorse or affirm sin. However, while we
>must unashamedly oppose all sin, including the
>current militant homosexual and pro-abortion
>social/political agendas, with our total beings,
>we are not called to condemn sinners.
Who died under the curse of Peter?
Who have authority to shut up heaven from people?
>We are
>called to love them (the sinners) in Christ and to
>point them to Jesus that they may be saved from
>that sin.
>
>Until next month, keep on lifting up the Name of
>Jesus!
>
With such evangelical falsehood, I guess you use the NIV. Right?
>God Bless you and yours
>
>In Christ
>ChristRing Ministries
>
>Pastor Dick <><
>ICQ # 734505
>
><>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Visit ChristRing Ministries
><>< | http://ChristRing.org | <><
>JOH 17:22 .. "that they may be one
>as we are one"
>===========================================
>This letter may be reproduced without charge and
>in its entirety for non-commercial and
>non-political purposes without prior permission
>from ChristRing Ministries. Copyright © 1999
>ChristRing Ministries, All Rights Reserved.
>
>
>
At 04:49 PM 11/29/99 -0500, you wrote:
>Greetings Bro David,
>
Thank you for your reply while being very busy.
>Thanks for the input. It and you are appreciated. My I briefly answer your
>concerns.
>
>1. God may hate sinners, we may not (Mat 22:37) (Luke 10:27 et. seq.).
>Because God's hatred is perfect, ours is not.
>
Matt22v37 is the first commandment to love God. It is inappropiate to mention a love verse while ignoring hate passages in question or concern.
You have missed the commandment to love His creation. Further more you have missed the theme that Christians ought to love and hate at the same time. "Love hate" mode is common in daily experience, even within Christian marriage.
Luke 10v27 addressed to the love for God and the neighbours. A concept evangelicals rarely grasped.
The Lord Jesus used the parable of the good Samaritan to illustrate who a neighbour is - that person who helps you(especially when you are helpless and in need) regardless of cultural difference and racial hatred.
It is but right to love those who love you. It is right to love those who come to your aid when you are in need.
This verse does not tell of the idea of loving those who hate you, or whose who are evil, or those who are enemies of Christ/God, or the devil, or your enemies. You have quoted the wrong verse to demonstrate love. - this I found to be a common evangelical phenomenon.
Furthermore, we as sons of the living God are to be like Him, following His examples and commandments and His words.
Ps31 v6. I have hated them that regard lying vanities: but I trust in the Lord.
Ps119 v113. I hate double-minded men, but I love your law. -NIV
Ps139 v21 21. Do not I hate them, O Lord, that hate thee? and am not I grieved with those that rise up against thee?
Matt6v24, Lk14v26
Rev2v15. So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.
>2. God makes all things new (Eph 4:24) (2 Cor 5:17). When sinners are made
>new they cease to be old wineskins.
>
Eph4 v24. And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.
Would the new man not war against the old man? The man is composed of his deeds. A man void of deeds is dead/lifeless.
Wineskins do not represent sinners and Christians, they represent establishment, institutions. Christians and the kingdom of God are refered to as new wine. The old Jewish Judaism as old wineskin.
>3. I never said there was "forgiveness without repentance". Nor, did I say
>that there was "justification by pre-faith" Please re-read this section
>prayerfully. Jesus spent most of his time with sinners.
>
Not hating a sinner is granting him forgiveness. Even worldly minds can comprehend the notion that in order to love somebody he must be forgiven. Otherwise the sinner is stigmatised. It is burying the dead dog while having its tail sticking up/out.
Love and hate ought to co-exist.
The scriptures have both love verses and hate verses.
>4. Christ always expressed his love for the sinner and called them to
>repentance. As to his rebuke of Peter, Jesus is rebuking the attitude and
>equating it with that of the world and Satan.
>
There is the instruction about shaking the dust off the sandals of the evangelists.
Mat23 v27. Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye are like unto whited sepulchres, which indeed appear beautiful outward, but are within full of dead men's bones, and of all uncleanness.
The attitude within. The persons without. Not just rebuking attitudes and what is within.
Mk8v33 - But when he had turned about and looked on his disciples, he rebuked Peter, saying, Get thee behind me, Satan: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but the things that be of men.
Nowhere here is the attitude singled out. Satana is not an attitude. Where is the equation here?
"He rebuked Peter" not his words or his attitude.
>5. Yes, we must call sin, sin. No compromise. But we may NEVER hate the
>sinner. That's God's prerogative. And I'm not God (neither are you)!
>
You do not want to be one with God?
You do not want to be a child of Light?
You do not want to be filled with the Spirit, and act in the Spirit?
I am not asking you to love less. I am asking you to love more, especially God and His word.
When you call the very personality of the person sin, he know you are against him person to person, and he knows you do not quite accept him. The element of hating him as a person is clear to him.
When the loving pacifists, Mennonites, after 10 years of discussion, made clear their position that homosexualism is not acceptable, although gay people are to be treated as human and allowed in the church, many left.
The position of sin is not that Christians would accept it someway, to some degree. It demands to be accepted fully and be fully integrated in the lives of the sons of God.
>6. Peter, but only through the power of God, The Holy Spirit.
>
All power is given to Christians to do the will of God. Jn20 vv21-23.
Please pray that you also would have the Spirit and work mightily.
Be holy for I AM HOLY.
Ga1 v8,9, 1Co16 v22. - The will of Christ as commanded by Paul. Not just cursing attitude and behaviour.
>7. No, I use the KJV and the NKJV. And last time I looked our standing
>before Christ has nothing to do with which Bible translation we use.
>
Thank you for your reply and answer. I have provided AV quotation for you here.
>Again, Thanks for your input, it shall be prayerfully considered. You are an
>important part of this ministry.
>
I pray you now have more substance to prayfully consider this matter.
>God bless you and yours
>In Christ
>
>Pastor Dick <><
>
>ICQ # 734505
>
Please beware of the danger of revealing all data and password in your computers by using
ICQ.
> <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
> Visit the Helms Family Web Site
> <>< <>< <>< | http://go.to/helms | <>< <>< <><
> Visit ChristRing Ministries
> <>< <>< <>< | http://ChristRing.org | <>< <>< <><
> Visit The Prayer Room
> <>< <>< <>< | http://go.to/pray | <>< <>< <><
> JOH 17:22 ... "that they may be one as we are one"
>
One in all aspects of Godliness. There is no partiality in God.
D. Lim: Please have some education, some respect, and good manners to answer questions, instead of pretending to answer, yet change questions into different concerns and fire away in different direction.
Get some education, if you realise you need some more education to enable such effort.
Envelope-to: dlim@interlog.com
Reply-To: "Pastor Dick"
From: "Pastor Dick"
To: "David Lim - Bible Preacher"
Subject: Re: Pastoral Letter
Date: Tue, 30 Nov 1999 12:26:24 -0500
X-MSMail-Priority: Normal
X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 5.00.2919.6600
X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2919.6600
Bro David,
I grieve for you. Perhaps you should focus less on "education" and more or
reading your Bible and seeking God's revelation of His word. In Christ's own
words MAT 23:27 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you
hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the
outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything
unclean.
Your attitude, name calling and spirit of rebellion is most un-Christlike
and very un-Biblical. If you will take this foul attitude with me, you will
also do so with other believers and we do not need this vulgar dissention in
our fellowship.. Therefore, I am removing your site from The Christian
WebRing. Please remove all Christian WebRing graphics and links from your
site as soon as possible. Should the Lord bring you to repentance for your
sinful behavior you may reapply and we will consider your application at
that time.
You shall remain in my prayers as shall those that you have lead into error.
May God bless you with a revelation of His truth.
In Christ
Pastor Dick <><
ICQ # 734505
<>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <>< <><
Visit the Helms Family Web Site
<>< <>< <>< | http://go.to/helms | <>< <>< <><
Visit ChristRing Ministries
<>< <>< <>< | http://ChristRing.org | <>< <>< <><
Visit The Prayer Room
<>< <>< <>< | http://go.to/pray | <>< <>< <><
JOH 17:22 ... "that they may be one as we are one"
...
A Failed Prophesy on Tyre? ||
Another Failed Prophesy on Tyre? ||
Why 4 Gospels? ||
Hebrew Matthew and document Q ||
Census in Luke Ch 2 ( Anachronism? ) ||
A Christian Witness ||
Evangelicalism ||
Similarity warrants Recognition and Unity? ||
Freewill and pre-destination ||
Dynamic Equivalence and Propitiation ||
Photography ||
Photo Gallery ||
Portrait Gallery ||
Architecture ||
Design Consultancy ||
Preacher ||
Herbalist ||
Cool Sites ||
News ||
e-mail