Answering Free Will and Pre-destination
(Pt 1)----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 12:39 PM
Patrick: God has not elected some to go to heaven and some to go to hell.
D. Lim: Thank you for your ferventness, not being Lukewarm.
Election is an initiation. God taking the initiation. Not somebody ruling over God, taking initiation before Him and making decision without His knowledge and control. It is not mankind that uphold the universe ever since the beginning.
Also those who are thrown into the lake of fire, including Satan, the old serpent and the anti-Christ is not said to have free will to enter and leave that place. They have no power over God. Death has no power over God.
It is God who initiated the guarding of the tree of life. No free will of men could overcome His sovereignty to reach the tree of life by themselves. Christ said that He is the Way, the Truth and the Life. There is no other Way and no other Name. People found God because God first finds them. He is the author and finisher of our faith(Heb12v2 #5051).(Heb5v9) Christ took initiation and dictates eternal salvation.
Your idea of free will is perhaps not free enough.
The hand of God is not too short to save.
Patrick: He as forknowledge of who will and who won't.
D. Lim: Which verse/s from scriptures say so? I suspect that you would have quoted it if there were any.
God does not get Himself into a helpless position as a spectator only. he actively involves Himself in all stages of history.
To be in control is the plan first, to act first, to anticipate first and to finish first.
Patrick: Your predestination doctrine is as wacko as your "OSAS" doctrine. He predestines the ones that He knows will endure and make it to His kingdom.
D. Lim: Sadly this is not from a quotation of scripture. To me this is simply unscriptural. it depicts of weak God not able to control the whole situation, having to bow to the initiation of free will first. Where is the proof text?
Eph 1v5. having foreordained us unto adoption as sons through Jesus Christ unto himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
God willed that certain sinners to be foreordained into adoption as sons. Not according to a growth pattern or a series of choices. People are either ordained or they are not. There is no "Mortgage Theory" taking things by stages.
Romans 8v30. and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
People do not come to choose after they are called. People are foreordained before the foundation of the world; even at the time of Adam and Eve, the Lord has laid out His promise. He foreordained them their eternal belonging and then called them at the right time. Ordination, election does not come after people make some choices after they are called. This is irresistable Grace in man's absolute deprivity.
And sinners are justified by the initiation of God, ie: His plan of salvation through His Son. They are not later justified after their initial faith and prayer of repentance, through answering to their series of choices.
Patrick: Here's some gospel for you.
Matthew 24:13 - "But he who endures to the end shall be saved." ~ Note: Part of the meaning of the word "saved," from the Greek word "sozo," is "to deliver from the penalties of the Messianic judgement." The word that Jesus Christ spoke will judge in the last day (John 12:48). That hasn't happened yet, so technically we are not saved from that yet. This being saved is clearly conditional. We must ENDURE to the end, and then we will be saved.
D. Lim: Some gospel? How many parts have you got?
I hope and pray that one day you will have "The Gospel", one totality instead.
You do not appear to see your folly, or that you are trying to tell a concept that redemption is the same as salvation.( eg:apolutrosis in Eph 4v30 v. soteria)
You said it yourself that endurance to the end is needed to be saved. But you have departed from the topic and doctrine of redemption. Your texts have no mentioning of any term regarding redemption.
Patrick: Matthew 24:48-51 - "But if that evil servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' (note: you see, Christ was his Master, but he turned evil) and begins to beat his fellow servants, and to eat and drink with the drunkards, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him and at an hour that he is not aware of, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites (note: the word hypocrites is associated with the enemies of the gospel in the previous chapter, when Christ explains that they will not be saved. So these former servants of Christ will go where the enemies of Christ go). There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth."
D. Lim: Who has the power to open that nobody can shut?(Rev3v7) And who has the power to shut that nobody can open?
Do not fight(Ne4v20, Job41v8).
The idea of absolute free will is that people may choose to take initiation. This is not a scriptural one.
Your idea also inidicates weakness in Old Testament studies. There is the term "His people" regarding the earthly Israel, and the term of exact spelling "His people" signifying the true Israel. The former people, after being saved, for instance, from the hand of Pharaoh and got out of Egypt, were condemned to death in the Sinai desert. The later people are the true Israelites by Faith, including the believers in the Gentile World.
There is the Passover, then Pentecost(shavuot), then the Judgement Day(Ros hashanah) representing the rapture, then the feast of Trumpets, also known as the days of Awe representing the tribulation, and the feast of the Tabernacle(Sukkot) representing the saints and the church with God. Pentecost representing the 2 churches grown in the Spirit actually supercedes the time of decision in the tribulation. The law is not given by choice of men at the Pentecost, the rapture is not taking people away by their free will. And the final time of decision comes after the rapture.
The secular Israel is not the elect, but the spiritual Israel. By grace the saints are what they are and have become. Not by works, lest anyone may boast; boasting that they are rightfully elected by their initial election/choice of Goodness/God.
God is also the Master of Satan and Judas Iscariot(yet one of the 12 is a devil; he was called even with foreknowledge of his betrayal), and Nero, and Pharaoh, and Herod the Great.
Darkness has never comprehended the Word.
Jn17v 12. While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Christ did not loss Judas later on in His mission due to choices of Judas. He said He has kept those that the Father gave Him. This is the certainty of the Almighty. Christ did not keep Judas in the name of God.
If all the 12 have free will, and all have sinned(Rm3v23), then something unfair was committed to Judas by not keeping him as of the 12.Absolute Free Will is something that allows people to have pride; to declare to others that they are saved through their own choice. This is Elitism. Everybody has the power to make the right choice without grace, therefore without God. A Godless(Anti-God, instead of God) world of masters of destiny.
Jn17v9. I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
Christ selectively prayed for His own. Those who are sons of God are numbered and given.
Matt24v45. Who then is the faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath set over his household, to give them their food in due season?
If you start read the passage a few verses up, you will read that Christ is making illustration of the faithful and wise servant.
The righteous shall be justified by faith.(Hab2v4)
The evil servants are not righteous and have faith. They are not known as Christians or saved souls in this world, although they also are stewards of this physical world, running its affairs.
There are indeed stages of salvation. One common illustration is that of a drowning person in the ocean. The rescuers threw him a life-buoy. He could be said as saved(in a safe situation) with this buoy. But he is not completely out of danger of the waves until he is lifted out of the water into the ocean liner, which is redemption.
Patrick: That should settle it right there. Anybody with the knowledge and fear of God should be able to see from that alone that ONE CAN FORFEIT THEIR SALVATION. The possibility of falling back into sin is here... I won't stop there though. Let's look at the same story in the gospel according to Luke. After that I have much more SCRIPTURAL PROOF.
D. Lim: Certainly people can forfeit their salvation. People can walk out of churches and assemblies. This happens almost daily. Those who have a new heart do not have a corruptable new heart.
The doctrine of back-sliding is taught within Calvinistic churches. Christians can of course sin and make mis-takes. All sins are covered by the once and for all sacrifice of Christ.
press here to continue with Pt 2
I, David C S Lim, ªL§Ó¸Û, can be reached by internet Preacher.html
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