Answering Free Will and Pre-destination
Pt 2----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 12:39 PM
Patrick: Luke 12:45,46 - "But if that servant says in his heart, 'My master is delaying his coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and be drunk, the master of that servant will come on a day when he is not looking for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in two and appoint him his portion with the UNBELIEVERS." ~ Note: That's plain and simple. One can be a servant of Christ, start the practice of sin, and not be ready for eternal life when Christ comes back again. This person will go where the unbelievers go. I don't think you need me to tell you where that is. SO WATCH OUT.
D. Lim: According to scriptures all things belong to God; all are His servants; but not all are the elects, saints, children of God, repented of sin.
Lets start earlier (which should be the beginning of this discourse)at Luke 12v 42. And the Lord said, Who then is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season?
The faithful and wise steward is the righteous servant.
Where in scripture does it teach that unfaithful people are children of God, born again Christians? Who is wise but those who has Christ?
The 5 unwise maid were left outside the Wedding House(Matt25vv1-13), which is the kingdom of God, on the Judgement Day, the Rapture. The house of Israel, liken to the foolish maids will be delivered after the Tribulation represented by the feast of Trumpets. They were not and are not Christians. They have not accepted Christ and repented. They are still looking for their Messiah coming to their yet to be built Temple.
Patrick: THE PARABLE of THE SOWER
Luke 8:5-8 - Jesus said, "A sower went out to sow his seed. And as he sowed, some fell by the wayside; and it was trampled down, and the birds of the air devoured it. Some fell on rock, and as soon as it sprang up, it withered away because it lacked moisture. And some fell among thorns, and the thorns sprang up with it and choked it. But others fell on good ground, sprang up, and yielded a crop a hundredfold." When He had said these things He cried, "He who has ears to hear, let him hear!"
D. Lim: Christ did not say in the passage above who are the sons of the Living God.
Only the last category bears fruits. And those who do not bear fruits are not liken to Christians; for out of love the people of God will bear fruits.
The passage does not tell of a picture of bearing fruits at stages and then getting burnt. It is not about stages of salvation. The word coming is not the word receiving. Giving a bible or Gospel to somebody is not giving birth to born again Christians.
Patrick: JESUS THEN EXPLAINED THE PARABLE of THE SOWER
Luke 8:11-15 - Jesus said, "Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God. Those by the wayside are the ones who hear; then the devil comes and takes away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved (note: these people don't become believers to begin with after they hear the word of God, but the others next do believe and get born again because they had overcome, but they lose their life in Christ and fall away because of sin).
D. Lim: The passage stated that the devil came and takes away the word .., lest they should believe and be saved.
The word was taken away.
There is no such thing as Christians without the word of God, which is the truth, the light. Christians ought not walk in darkness, for they are children of light.
Christ actually said that they were kept from believing and be saved.
Those who do not believe in the word that comes to them are not believers, therefore are not Christians, and they are not saved.
They are not even saved! Less is the other salvation experienced. They are not born again Christians. They are at best Liberals, relying on stages, steps of perfection, hopefully perfected enough by the time of judgement to warrant salvation. There is no redemption for them. They are never completely people belonging of God. Getting better, or the imagination of getting better simply is not perfection. The redemptive blood of Christ did not make them whole.
Patrick: But the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, who believe for a while (note: They were born-again believers, but they had no root because they were not strong "in Christ." They should have learned the word of God better. But even if they would have had some root, God still could have cut them off because of unbelief, just like you'll see it is in Romans 11:17-22) and in time of temptation fall away (note: They had been set free from sin, but they didn't resist the temptation of sin when the devil brought it.
D.Lim: No where in the passage do you find the words Christians or born again believers.
Believing with no roots, is not belief that is rooted in Christ.
Believing for a while but bears no fruit. Remember the fig tree and the vine branches that do not bear fruit. They represent the carnal Israel, who are also called people of God, but do not partake in the spiritual Israel of the sons of God.
Romans 11v7. What then? that which Israel seeketh for, that he obtained not; but the election obtained it, and the rest were hardened: 8. according as it is written, God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this very day.
The elect got it. The rest were hardened. No fruit. No repentance so far.
Romans 11v17-22 is a comparison the hardened Israel who have not come to Christ, ie. not Christians, and the spiritual Israel of the Gentile world. The hardened Israel will be redeemed after the Days of Awe, which is the Tribulation; and Christ will return after the feast of the lamb and touches the Mt. of Olive.
The passage does not mention those who believe for a while had been set free from sin. There are stories of the rich young man who came to Christ and left, Nicodemus who came believing in something and left, Judas Iscariot who believed in something and left, none are told to be free from sin.
Patrick: The Greek word for "fall away" is "aphistemi." It means they "depart, desert, withdraw, fall away," whichever definition you choose to use, from having life in Christ. They no longer have belief which means they "become faithless" because they fell for the temptation of sin).
D. Lim: The passage and the word #868 never speaks of falling from having life in Christ. They have never belonged to Christ. They fell from a belief, not after having the faith. Currently the carnal Israel does not accept Christ as their Messiah although they believe in something relating to the law. The Rabinnical Talmud never equates scriptures.
Patrick: Now the ones that fell among thorns are those who, when they have heard, go out and they are choked with cares, riches, and pleasures of life, and bring no fruit to maturity (note: Sin destroyed these lives as well. The sin of greed. I will also show you later that you need to bear good fruit). But the ones that fell on the good ground are those who, having heard the word with a noble and good heart, keep it (note: The Greek word for "keep" is "katecho." It means "hold fast, keep, stay" in regards to "from going away." Clearly this is our personal responsibility to continue to believe the word of God and to remain faithful to Him) and bear fruit with patience." ~ Note: The Greek word for "patience" is "hupomone." It more correctly means "enduring, perseverance, the characteristic of a man who is not swerved from his deliberate purpose and his loyalty to faith and piety by even the greatest trials and sufferings." To be saved at the end, you must persevere while bearing good fruit. Jesus made it clear that a true believer produces good fruit, and that the human will is involved IN REMAINING A BELIEVER, since He says we must "keep it" and "persevere." Christ proves here that no one is eternally secure no matter what they do.
D. Lim: Description of the way of salvation is not description of the way of redemption.
There is the good work caused by faith such as visiting the imprisoned and the widows. This good work springs from faith of His redemption, His sufficiency; not upon ones own earned merit for self-justification. You simply cannot buy yourself into heaven, into the commonwealth of God.
Atonement does not include the concept of personal good deeds and works.
Paul talked of reward in heaven for the saints. No indication that they will be rewarded by their deeds before they entered the commonwealth of God. Jn3v16 - God took the initiation to send His Son. That is well before people loved Him and the Son. And it is a matter of believing His providence to be saved. Nothing to do with works.
It is good to get back to the original, the source for truth. It is not good to take single words out of context. It is important to have sentence as sentence, and passage as passage.
There is the Song of Songs that carries no divorce. There is the term everlasting life in Jn3v16. There is the Wedding of the Lamb but no divorce. God is capable in saving to the end. Christ prayed for Him people to be one just as the Father and the Son are one; no separation. No falling away in Heaven after the Rapture; For there is no divorce. God is faithful.
Patrick: TASTELESS SALT is WORTHLESS
Luke 14:34,35 - Jesus said, "Salt is good; but if the salt has lost its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is neither fit for the land nor for the dunghill ("kopria" in the Greek, it means "manure pile"). but men throw it out. He who has ears to hear, let him hear!" ~ Note: In the ancient world, salt was often used as a catalyst for burning fuel such as cattle dung. The salt of the time was impure and could lose its strength over time, becoming useless. Jesus' point is that the same is true of a "saltless" disciple. He will be thrown out.
D. Lim:
No where does it mention that a saltless/tasteless disciple is a born again Christian.
Read v33 and see that Christ was speaking of who His disciple can be. Tastless salt is not Christian.
This comparison is used to provoke the carnal Christians to check and know their state and turn to God, so as to become spiritual Christians, those that are born again.
Patrick: THE PARABLE of THE LOST SON
Luke 15:13 - Jesus said, "And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living." ~ Note: The Greek verb for "wasted" is "diaskorpizo." It means "to scatter abroad, disperse." So this is doing something like what we call "throw your money away." The Greek word for "prodigal" is "asotos." It means "riotous, dissolutely, profligately." These words mean "immoral, corrupt, extremely wasteful, recklessly extravagant." So the son took his inheritance and squandered it all away living a recklessly extravagant lifestyle. But when he came to his senses (came to himself in 15:17. It doesn't means that the Holy Spirit convicted him. He had to personally choose what to do), repented, and turned back to his father, he said this...
D. Lim: Christ never speak of this parable as about repentance. He illustrates the love of the Father, his reconciliation, and the elder son who does not realise the effect of his sonship. This story is not about 2 kinds of Christians. There is no illustration of the repentance of the elder son. Christians do not start their lives from Heaven.
In the prodigal son, it is the father who took initiation to embrace him, kissed him, ordered a ring to be put on him, took initiation to restall his sonship and belonging and wealth. The lost son was not able to finish his speech.
The son took initiation(chose) to become a servant. The son, in fact both sons, did not take initiation for full/complete reconciliation. But the father (chose)took initiation for full reconciliation, to gain a son back. His love was then discovered and better experienced.
The father alone pardoned all sin, all trespasses.
Also the father, seeing him from a distance took initiation to run to him.
So, who makes the choice of redemption? - The father. and who makes the choice of repentance? - The lost son. and who restored the harmony of the family? - The father.
The lost son did not boss around, chaired the meeting, chaired the initiation, appeased his brother, establish the feasting, slaughter the fatted calf.
God the Father is in control. The story praises the love of the loving Father who is the reconciler.
Christ reconciled the saints unto God the Father. He was made the Great High Priest by oath. He intercedes for His people. And His sheep know His voice. They do not choose to be part of the Shepherd, they belong to Him. He gathers them by His will and power. They are not gathered by they own pact/initiation.
The good Shepherd dies for His own sheep. God took the initiation. The sheep were too foolish to realise what was going on.
His staff and His rod comforts us.
You chose to be as great as God Almighty, making all decisions for your comeback. Ever consider your ability and effort? Pro14v12, Isa64v6, Jer17v9, Gal2v16, Ti3v5, Jam2v10
Patrick: Luke 15:21 - "And the son said to him, 'Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son." ~ Note: This guy knew he fell into the bondage of sin and was no longer considered worthy to be a child of God, but his father said...
D. Lim:
The passage did not start with having been saved from the bondage of sin.
Ever consider the doctrine of back-sliding?
Christians can at occasions sin and violate the code of righteousness. But as 1John has it written - those who are born of God sin not. ie: those who are covered by His blood has imputed righteousness.
Paul also told of the knowledge of sin Rom7,8, but could not escape sin without Christ.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Once Saved, Always Saved" "IS WRONG"
D. Lim: That depends on what kind of salvation we are talking about.
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I, David C S Lim, ªL§Ó¸Û, can be reached by internet Preacher.html
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