Answering Free Will and Pre-destination
Pt 3----- Original Message ----- From: Patrick
Sent: Friday, September 29, 2000 12:39 PM
Patrick: Luke 15:24 - "'for this my son WAS DEAD and is ALIVE AGAIN; HE WAS LOST and is found.' And they began to be merry." ~ Note: The Greek word for "dead" is "nekros." Here it means "spiritually dead, destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God because given up to trespasses and sins." The Greek word for "alive again" is "anazao." Here it means "to be restored to a correct life, of one who returns to a better moral state." The words "restored" and "returns" are actions of things that once had it, then didn't have it, then had it again. The words "dead" and "alive again" clearly mean that the son fofeited his salvation but later got it back. And surely you probably know that the words "lost" and "found" are about someone who is or is not going to heaven. Clearly, this parable explains that one can be a child of God, then leave God and start the practice of sin, and become dead and lose their fellowship with God, because God just said that "he was lost." Unless, of course, one comes to their senses, repents, and turns back to God like I did after I backslid and in the way it is portrayed in this parable. Then they will be "alive again." But just because this parable has a happy ending, it doesn't mean that it always turns out this way. The Scriptures here on this page will prove this; but first, another happy ending...
D. Lim: This is a story concerning repentance, and the Father's love redeeming the lost son and the attitude of the elder son.
#3498 does not have a bias towards spirituality.
Ana - again. However not all ana refered to returning to a previous state. Eg: Anabaptism, and anabaptist. Therefore they are not called rebaptiser or reimmerser.
Ana-thema does not mean cursed again, it simply is acursed.
You allowed yourself a step of faith that misled you.
Stupid students go to dictionaries even language speakers for their case. Good ones go to the source, weigh up all evidence and make definition.
Christians did not start their lives in Heaven, left home, and then return later. Even Adam and Eve did not begin their lives in Heaven. Much less as Christians. They did not back-slide. They sinned.
Patrick: Luke 22:31,32 - And the Lord said, "Simon, Simon! (Peter) Indeed, Satan has asked for you, that he may sift you as wheat (note: The Greek word for "sift" is "siniazo." Figuratively, it means "by inward agitation to try one's faith to the verge of overthrow." You see, Satan can try to get you to overthrow your faith). But I have prayed for you, that your faith should not fail (note: I see the Lord implying that it is possible that our faith could fail. If that were to happen, then our relationship with God would cease); and when you have returned to Me (note: The Greek word for "returned" is "epistrepho." It means "turn agan, turn back, come back" in regards "to the love and obedience of God." That's pretty simple to understand), strengthen your brethren." ~ Note: Peter was dangerously close to having his faith failing when he denied that he knew Jesus 3 times. This was when Satan was sifting him. It's a good thing Jesus prayed for him so that he didn't totally abandon Jesus. If Peter was in danger of his faith failing, we also need to be aware of this possibility, so watch out.
D. Lim:
This happy ending transported in time and space to another Gospel book and chapter.
Note that Christ had prayed for Simon. He was saved before the ascribed harm of being sifted occured. Simon came to his sense when he heard the cock a second time, and the face of the Lord reminded him. Forgiveness was already granted. Reconciliation made.
Paul is convinced of the love of God in Christ. (Romans 8vv32,38,39)
Romans 8v 15. For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
The Father will not abandon His sons, who even call Him Father, through the intercessor, the Holy Spirit.
Christians do have failings. However, a son of God will not become a bastard; an heir is never a thief, for an owner does not need to steal of his own.
Patrick: THE VINE & THE BRANCHES
John 15:1,2 - Jesus said, "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He TAKES AWAY..." ~ Note: This is someone in Christ who gets taken away because they did not bear fruit. The Greek word for "fruit" is "karpos." It means "that which originates or comes from something, an effect, result; or, work, act, deed; or, praises which are presented to God as a thank offering." Obviously something a servant of God personally needs to have or else God will take that person away. The Greek word for "takes away" is "airo." I believe the meaning here is "to take off or away what is attached to anything; to remove." So this Scripture is about God removing someone from being in Christ. So clearly, this is about someone forfeiting their salvation.
D. Lim:
The passage does not mention that every branch is every christian.
This passage is about the branches of earthly Israel being remove to allow the gentiles to come into faith and Christ.
Jn15v3 speaks of the cleaning of the disciples. They are the dressed branches having Christ spoken to them. The carnal Israel had not.
Back to Jn14v29, the disciples had just heard. The rest of Israel were not christians. The passage in Jn15vv1-3 is not about christians being cut out; for they were not even christians.
Patrick: John 15:6 - Jesus said, "If anyone does not abide in Me, HE IS CAST OUT as a branch and is withered (note: in order to be cast out, one must first be "IN Christ");
D. Lim: No. the earthly/carnal Israel was in the promise, the Old Covenant of God. The majority had no knowledge of Christ. They were not in Christ. They were not Christians. You basicly have to turn to Acts to begin seeing gentile christian converts. They are taught to abide in Christ, although being gentiles they were not in the commonwealth of God.
Even at that stage, the disciples were being taught by Christ, having things made clear for them and for us.
Patrick: and they gather them and throw them INTO THE FIRE, and they are burned." ~ Note: The Greek word for "abide" is "meno." It also means "remain, continue, endure, not to depart, to continue to be present, to remain as one, not to become another or different." Surely, this is a warning to stay in Christ, which means it's possible to not do so. To be throw into the fire and burned is clearly about God casting someone to hell where they will be consumed with fire. This will happen to a former branch in Christ. So this is a clear teaching of Jesus that it is necessary for us believers to continue to walk in the sanctification given us at the new birth. We must keep believing and OBEYING HIS WORD (John 15:9,10), or we chose to stop our relationship with Him. That would be some of us not bearing fruit, which stems from not obeying Him, that causes some to be cast out. Fruit is our outward conduct which shows our inward character, which then shows that we serve Christ. One way it can be done is by speaking the truth. For instance, one of the criminals who was crucified with Jesus Christ spoke the truth when he said to the other criminal that Jesus had done no wrong (Luke 23:41). That was his friut that he bore in addition to calling Jesus, "Lord." One must speak the truth or have the chance of forfeiting their salvation. You will also see this in 1 Tim. 6:20,21.
D. Lim:
1Tim 6 v20. O Timothy, guard that which is committed unto thee, turning away from the profane babblings and oppositions of the knowledge which is falsely so called; 21. which some professing have erred concerning the faith. Grace be with you.
The verses above in 1Tim6 v20,21 instructed Timothy as Elder/Overseer being a shepherd of his assembly to guard the assembly from profane of "the Knowledge" eg: Gnosticism.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Once Saved, Always Saved" "IS WRONG"
D. Lim: That depends on what kind of salvation we are talking about.
I am not a Calvinist, upholding Calvinism only. However, those who uphold Free will can never win their case from scriptures.
There are different types and stages of salvation. But one redemption is all sufficient for the faithful. (Jn3v16)
While pointing out and exposing the tares/weeds, they are to be left in the assemblies until the end time. Our judgement goes thus far. We do not carry out full punishment hereby. God will at His proper time. We leave room for His Wrath which is real.
Meanwhile, do the work of a evangelist, a preacher.
I, David C S Lim, ªL§Ó¸Û, can be reached by internet Preacher.html
meshiahe-mail or by phone (416)264-8390.
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