KJV instead of NASB

S. Frank Logsdon�s Testimony

Two questions were handed me tonight which if I could answer them would take care of almost all the other questions: "Please tell us why we should use the Authorized Version and why the New American Standard is not a good version, and the background from which it came." "What is your opinion of the 1881, 1901 and other variations of the Bible in relation to the Authorized Version?"

D.Lim: The majority have no access to AV(400 year old copies are not readily available) and can only get and read the KJV. The very offset of the essay shows an intention to defeat the NASB or any other version with the AV. This is no objective scholarship.

At best a personal opinion and preference.

May I point out to you very specifically, not that you do not know but to stir up your pure minds by way of remembrance, we are in the end time. And this end time is characterized by a falling away, and of course that is apostasy. That is the meaning of the word: Falling away from truth. And when there is a falling away from truth, concurrently there is always confusion because they are sort of Siamese twins.

D.Lim: Pure minds as minds covered by the blood of Christ? No. It means here that the minds are actually pure, not contaminated by sin. The writer is assuming and advocating that the AV is not a fallen work, something happened and produced after the time of falling away has begun. Paul taught us that the end time and the falling away has begun even in his time. The church has been in the midst of apostasy.

D.Lim: Such expressions are much used by Baptists and KJV minded people.

With confusion there is mental and heart disturbance, and people naturally come short of the high standard of the Lord. Everything we have or ever will have will be found here [in the Bible], as we have said so many times.

D.Lim: Spiritual disturbance not mentioned, not thought of when the article was penned.

All that God does for us, in us, with us, through us, to us must come by the way of this Word. It's the only material the Spirit of God uses to produce life and to promote it.

D.Lim: Cessationists speaking. The Holy Spirit and His work is ruled out. All there is for them to consider is the Word (The Bible). Rationalism substituting Spiritual activities, power and witness. The Bible is telling believers that it is not the only material the Spirit of God uses to produce life and to promote it. The Spirit is at work in the hearts and minds of the elects and confirming the church with signs. (Mark 16v20).

In the apendix of Mark16 (another verse found in some manuscripte after v8 � Jesus Himself sent out through them[the apostles] from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.) The Gospel and proclamation is sent by apostles, those heeding the Great Commission.

Name it, and it has to be here.

D.Lim: Cessationists speaking. Ruling the works and witness of the Holy Spirit. Their works become, at best, works of upright men.

So you can understand why the archenemy of God and man would want to do something to destroy this book.

D.Lim: No trust in the Holy Spirit and the providence of God.

I ought to whisper to you, and this is no compliment to the devil, but he knows it can't be destroyed.

D.Lim: Talking about availability of versions, the majority have no access to the original AV. People can only readily buy the latest editions of the KJV.

He tried to destroy the Living Word. You don't see this depicted on Christmas cards, but the night Jesus Christ was born a devil was there in that stable with one third of the fallen angels whom he had dragged down, to devour the manchild as soon as He was born (Rev. 12:6). Now he couldn't do it. Just think. Satan was there when Jesus was born, with all of those cohorts, those fallen angels, for one purpose: to devour the manchild. He couldn't do it.

D.Lim: Dispensationism voiced here. Rev. 12v6 is not just about a time 2000 years ago in Bethleham. The survival of Christ does not equate the compiling of manuscripts into the Received Text, and the Old English of KJV not transitioning into modern English.

Christ is new everyday, and we are singing new songs. The KJV is still the 400 year old English.

So failing to abort the Saviorhood of Jesus Christ both at the manger and at the cross-when he said come down from the cross, that is, before your work is finished come down-he is going to do what he knows is the next most effective thing, that is try to destroy the Written Word.

D.Lim: And Cessationists are working SO HARD to cover up the works of the Holy Spirit, signs and wonders.

You understand, I am sure, there are places in this book where you can't differentiate between the Living Word and the Written Word. You know that. John 14:6-"I am the life." John 6:63--My words are life." Different life? The same life. You can't differentiate because after all the Written Word is the breath, if you please, of God, and Jesus Christ is God made flesh or the Word that came to earth.

D.Lim: John 6v63: It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life. -KJV

The Spirit is conveniently covered up and ignored. The word � spirit - appeared twice in this verse. The words of Christ are not just life or human life. The same spirit of wonders and signs. Not just some life-giving air/wind. Not just a breath. The Spirit is a person in the Godhead. He has a position, a status, a throne. He is enthroned.

The evil attack on the Holy Spirit, His witness, and His works.

The Devil's Attack On The Bible

Nevertheless, getting back to this, the devil is too wise to try to destroy the Bible. He knows he can't. He can't destroy the Word of God. But he can do a lot of things to try to supplant it, or to corrupt it in the minds and hearts of God's people.

D.Lim: The Devil is also trying to do away with the Holy Spirit as a person and His gifts. The Devil is trying to make the supernatural Church of God with power, into just some human rationale, some scholarship that can be established by shear reasoning.

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Now he can only do it in one of two ways: either by adding to the Scriptures or by subtracting from the Scriptures. And you mark it down in your little red book: He's too wise to add to because those who have been in the Word for a long time would say, "Wait a minute; this is not in the Bible." So he subtracts from it. The deletions are absolutely frightening.

D.Lim: The meanings are covered and removed by education, college paperwork, established churches(their recognition and disregard) and human pride.

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For instance, there are in the revisions (1881 and 1901), so we are told 5337 deletions, subtractions if you please. And here is the way it is done. It is done so subtly that very few would discover it.

D.Lim: How come human rationale does not work here, Cessationists? How come only a few could discover this, all sufficient minds? Is it not because you are weak without the guidance of the Spirit? Do you not know it all, as you interpret 1Cor13 when the Bible (your idea and teaching of that which is perfect) came?

1Cor13v9:For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

13:10: But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.

D.Lim: Come come your people, fellow believers still know in part? Was not that done away with? When would you stop lying and come to the truth, you professors of the truth?

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1Cor13v12: For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.

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For instance, in the New American Standard we are told that 16 times the word "Christ" is gone. When you are reading through you perhaps wouldn't miss many of them. Some you might. And 10 or 12 times the word "Lord" is gone. For instance, if you were in a church when the pastor is speaking on the words of the Lord Jesus in His temptation, "Get thee behind me, Satan," if you have a New American Standard you wouldn't even find it. It's not even in there. And there are so many such deletions.

D.Lim: What logic/reasoning is that we must preserve whatever are put into earlier versions? The Western Texts have very many add-ons. The Received Text has removed them since the beginning of its conception.

D.Lim: The advocate/writer is trying to ensnare(character assasination) the NASV and other versions by hinting that they miss out something without supplying reference to where such missed out part/s may be found in the counter version or in the original scripture. The readers are likely to believe they indeed lack something when they cannot find such reference. Little do they know and are aware that the advocate has supply no reference that they may find these extra verses and passage in the AV/KJV.

Matt16v23; Mark8v33 in the NASV has this saying of Christ Jesus.

Where else in the KJV do we find this saying? Where?

When will liars stop lying?

So many such deletions? Where about?

Where is the deletion of "get behind Me, Satan!" in the NASV in the first place?

And should we go further, after discovering this lie and plot of the advocates?

Should we take this as an example how KJV/AV people operate?

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So this is done in order to get around it and further blind the minds and hearts of people, even though it may be done conscientiously. There isn't any worse kind of error than to have conscientious error. If you are conscientiously wrong it's a terrible situation to be in.

D.Lim: Conscientious error! No worse kind of error? Terrible?!

When will they repent, that we may forgive them?

Nevertheless, we pray for their repentance and the day to forgive them.

Nevertheless, when there is an omission that might be observed, they put in the margin, "Not in the oldest manuscripts." But they don't tell you what those oldest manuscripts are. What oldest manuscripts? Or they may say, "Not in the best manuscripts." What are the best manuscripts? They don't tell you. You see how subtle that is? The average man sees a little note in the margin which says "not in the better manuscripts" and he takes for granted they are scholars and they must know, and then he goes on. That's how easily one can be deceived.

D.Lim: Where in any translation, including the KJV, the Great Bible, Tindale, and any common (not special text for scholars) version is reference of all manuscripts given? Again, this is character assasination, gossip, and unscholarly behavior.

What would the common reader know if, for instance, Aleph or B is mentioned? How much of Aleph is known by the common reader. I should think � Nothing.

The average man takes for granted that Cessationists, and KJV advocates are the best Christians and scholars there is.

Know how many Baptists left the faith to embrace Islam and Buddhism? What proportion in the Christian Church? Some very good pretenders amongst believers.

And he takes for granted they are scholars and they must know, and then he goes on. This is the mental reasonable state of the average reader. This is the paradox of regarding Scriptures as everything a believer may lean on to get near to God. This is the sad state of disregarding the Spirit Holy in ones life.

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The New American Standard Version is not the King James Version. It never was, isn't, and never will be. Not many perhaps have caught this, but when King James gave his seal to the order to have the Bible translated it was just the permission or authority to go

ahead with it. It wasn't his Bible.

D.Lim: The KJV is not perfection regardless whether King James thought. The translators were not in a state of perfection when they worked on this translation.

And for some 200 years his name was not connected to it; he didn't want his name connected with it. And long, long after he had gone from this scene in some sly, clever way "King James" was attached to it. You see, that is attaching God's Word to a man, or man's name to God's Word, and it shouldn't be. It is the Authorized Version.

D.Lim: So is NASB attached to America and American Standard. They are all versions of the original which was not written in English of any kind.

This scholar made the error of regarding the AV as the only God�s Word and went on to work on the NASB to get God�s Word(in his opinion) better.

The Authorized Version is not authorized by God, and the King together with the translators never claim it to be. It was authorized by King James. So, very well, his name is attached to it for scholarly reasons. It is to be fixed/slotted into a historical period, and scholarship profile.

The KJV was authorized by the King of England called/named James. It did not and does not claim to be authorized by God as the only Bible(source).

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The History of the Critical Greek Text

Let's go back to say 352 A.D., when Constantine, the Old Pagan Wolf, as he was called, was concerned because his kingdom was threatened with a schism. There were those who hold to the Babylon doctrine of the mother and child coming up through history, and there were others who held to the Roman doctrine of mother and child. In order to cement his kingdom, he felt he ought to bring about a Bible that would satisfy both sides which were threatening to destroy his kingdom. So he called upon Eusibius. (There were two men of that period called by this name, but I am referring to Eusibius the historian.) Who was Eusibius? He was a protégée of Origin. And who was Origin? Origin was one who believed that Christ was a created being, like the Jehovah's Witnesses, therefore he's not divine. Now a man who studies under a teacher like that certainly would imbibe some of it. Nevertheless, Eusibius brought into being a Bible that would somehow or other not offend those who had the Babylonian doctrine or those who had the Roman doctrine of the mother and the child.

D.Lim: Should any reader take it for granted that the advocate told the truth and the whole truth about someone called Eusibius bringing into being a Bible?

Where were the challenges of his time and later period in defending the Bible (the Word of God that is not brought into being by him)?

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Rome Is The Custodian Of The Critical Text

There are two copies of those Bibles in existence, A and B. The Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. And where are they? They are in the custodial care of Rome. Now almost all of our revisions, of recent years in particular, come through that stream. And that necessitates this comment: There is the false and the true streams of manuscripts. And either our manuscripts come through the false stream or the correct one, or the approved stream or manuscripts.

D.Lim: The Critical Text? What is its name? Would not the authority of Rome uniting the visible Christian churches make it official, the only copy available and MSS?

Now you see again, that the average readers do not readily comprehend what MSS is.

Do we have a lineage, a chart, a chronology(accepted by sholars throughout the centuries) for this stream of The Critical Text? Co we have another stream called the Received Text parallel to this stream of The Critical Text that survived Constantine and his uniting authority, Rome and its monopoly, and all scribes and Roman Scholars, and the Orthodox church, to come down to us as untained perfection of God? What was and is the name of this family of manuscript dug up? What names are given to these manuscripts? RC1? RC2? RC3?

They just do not exist. The liars simply are not able to produce us these unearthed discovered manuscripts that witness the change of the centuries and history.

D.Lim: Who approved the true stream of manuscripts? Cessationists? People who have no signs and wonders? No spiritual power? No visible gifts to prove their authenticity?

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When people speak of the oldest manuscripts, they usually mean the A and the B. the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus. But nobody has seen either one of those for 500 years. They've been under lock and key in Rome. And the only copies we have are the copies that Rome decided to give to the outside world, and I don't trust them one inch. Never, never, never! And I'll tell you why in just a moment.

D.Lim: There is A and there is Aleph. Noboby has seen the majority of manuscripts 500 years earlier, as they are discovered in the recent 2 centuries. The majority of believers saw no manuscript 500 years ago, as it was before the reformation, and Rome had monopoly over all manuscripts in the West.

Textual critics and Literal critics are not generally receiving any text totally based on their names or that they are from Rome.

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None of our scholars today have seen either the A or the B. unless they've seen just a page or two through a glass case. But that's not enough to get the feel of the whole thing, just to see a page that is open at one place. So here we have the stream of manuscripts and the stream of Greek texts coming down through the "custodial care" of Rome. And if it's in the custodial care of Rome, I don't want anything to do with it.

D.Lim: What is needed to demonstrate this stream is

1) having the manuscripts in custody. But we are told that only 2 were released to us.

2) having the Vulgate and other Roman Bible shown to be of this stream of error. We do not have this proof and comparison even though we can easily buy a Vulgate and compare verses.

3) having evidence to show us that prior to the English Church of Henry VII leaving the Roman church, they already possessed that other stream of the Bible. That would mean existence of 2 distinct Bibles before Henry VII with the Roman Catholic Church. Never in history do we have that. Never are we shown that England left Rome with a different Bible.

I've come to this place now: I can't stand toe to toe with the scholars, with those who have delved into the manuscripts and the textual criticism for years and years. I've had too many other things to do. And you haven't been able to, either. So what do you do? I don't argue with them anymore. I'm not going to argue with any of them. I'm just going to ask, on what manuscript or manuscripts is this version based? And if it's based upon a manuscript that came down through this Roman stream, I don't want anything to do with it.

D.Lim: This scholar really has problems. He really lacks integrity in scholarship.

A manuscript that cannot be named? A, Aleph, B? What?

Where is honesty? Where is scholarship? Where is the information for the readers to examine and to weigh out the argument with?

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Erasmus

You say, How can we know? Well, when God was ready to tell the world through a converted monk that the just shall live by faith, he raised up a man-and I'm sure that God raised him up; couldn't be otherwise-by the name of Erasmus. Erasmus is said by those who seem to know-scholars, we have to take their word for something that he was the wisest man this side of Solomon that ever lived. It was said that he could do ten days work in one day. Brilliant. I forgot how many languages he spoke; they say he was home in eighteen or twenty different languages as easily as we can move around in the English language.

D.Lim: Sure? By what means? With Scripture teaching you? Or with personal conviction that is void of the gifts of the Spirit? With personal reasoning?

A faith in human ability while bearing no faith in the power and affirmation of the Holy Spirit.

A leap of faith in hearsay and no scholarly comparative studies.

An admiration of superhuman ability but hate to have the powers from on high. No revelation from God(The Holy Spirit). No dream. No vision!

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He knew the manuscripts that were available, and he brought about a Greek text. Now he was so brilliant that the pope offered him-that is to keep him, I suppose, from doing this Greek text offered him the position of a cardinal, which is a high-ranking position for those in the Catholic Church. I know a little bit about it because my father's people were from Ireland and were Roman Catholic all the way back. I have three cousins in Chicago who are priests. I have a cousin in the Chicago area who is a nun. That was quite an offer to be offered the position of a cardinal, yet he refused it. The British government, I am told, offered him one of the highest positions possible in the British common wealth. And at his own price he turned it down. Germany did the same thing, but he turned it down because he felt God had called him to bring about the pure Greek text.

D.Lim: This advocate is telling us that Erasmus brought about a Greek text; a text of his works, and not a text unchanged that he preserved from the very beginning. No lineage is proved. He did not have the original Word of God, unchanged and unchanging.

From this offer, we may see/conclude that Rome did not have an opposing Bible Text. The Roman Catholic Church was welcoming him and his text.

It now appears that this Eramus is a modern person and not an early Father of the Church, since Britain and Germany did not exist around the time of Christ and only came about in recent history. Britain was not one country and people at the time of William the Conqueror of France, and Germany was Prussia at the beginning of the 20th century.

Pure Greek text? Apart from the Received Text?

If it was the Received Text, then Stephanus had done the job.

It it is not the Received Text, then it is differing from the text behind the KJV.

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All of this goes off into so many areas. We have a friend in one of our Baptist churches, very delightful chap, very educated, and he speaks against Erasmus because he had some attachment to the Roman church. Even our friend Peter Ruckman speaks against Erasmus. But how could you speak against a man, claiming that he is a Roman, when he turned down the offer of a cardinalship and campaigned against monasticism, against the liturgy of the Catholic church, and was detested by the Catholic people?

D.Lim: How attached? How attached even after refusing the office of Cardinal? Was he Roman Catholic?

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And not only that, but listen to this: Do you know one of the reasons the Jesuits came into being under Loyala? Their main project was to supplant the Erasmus text, get it out of the way somehow, just to undermine it. And this is their pledge. You can go to the library and get this directly, if you care. They said, "In order to supplant the Erasmus text we'll send our men to Protestant seminaries, Protestant Bible schools; we'll get them into teaching positions in seminaries; we'll get them into pulpits of churches." To do what? The whole aim around the world is to destroy the Erasmus text, and the Authorized Version of course came from the Erasmus text.

D.Lim: Now this Eramus is being thrown back into early history, before the setup of the Jesuits. Our advocate seems to have a poor sense of history.

Eramus is now a historical figure before the AV.

Came from does not mean the same. What was Stephanus doing if Eramus had done it?

Getting back to this one matter that really impresses me a great deal. When God was ready to tell the world that the just shall live by faith; he got hold of the heart of Luther and he tacked his thesis to the door-"the just shall live by faith"-and took all the persecution that comes to one who turns against the church of Rome. If the just shall live by faith, where do we get faith? Romans 10:17-"Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God." If they're going to have pure faith they had to have the pure Word of God. Doesn't that make sense? And so God raised up Erasmus to bring about what was called the pure Greek text, and had it completed when Luther came thundering forth "the just shall live by faith." He had the Greek text of Erasmus to translate. Someone put it this way: Erasmus laid the egg and Luther hatched it. Just at the right time he had the text, and all he had to do was to translate it into German.

D.Lim: Faith comes from hearing and not from the Holy Spirit working in the hearts of the elects? Not at all. One part of Scripture speaks one part of truth. Peter and Paul did not preach for long when many came to believe. You do not need a completely untouched Bible to preach and believe in the saving faith of Christ.

Erasmus text with Luther and yet the Roman Catholic Church did not have it? You want to believe and teach this?

Luther translated from the Erasmus Text while in England the translators had the Received Text of Stephanus to translate into their AV?!

All at the right time, modern scholars used other texts?!

All at the right time God stopped protecting His Word from the corrupted texts?!

And it was so beautiful the way he translated it. I read it to you the other night. 2 Corinthians 5:21--He who knew no sin was made sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." Imputation. Christ took all that was ours that He might give us all that was His. This is the way Luther translated it freely from the Erasmus text; same message we have identically in the Authorized Version.

D.Lim: Who did this scholar want to cheat? The Lutheran Bible is written in old German. Who speaks old German nowadays?

How unidentical is it in other versions?

I think I mentioned the other night, since there is so much concern about these versions and paraphrases and so on, it is a marvelous opportunity for the devil to get in his strokes, you know.

D.Lim: So much talking about the devil, these Cessationists, and no talk about the working of the Holy Spirit.

Through computerized procedures they have tried to determine the accuracy right down the line. You have lists of those in various books. The Authorized Version is right at the top. Friends you can say the Authorized Version is absolutely correct. How correct? 100 percent correct!

D.Lim: Personal conviction and opinion. Where is scholarship? Where is good scholarship?

Because biblical correctness is predicated upon doctrinal accuracy, and not one enemy of this Book of God has ever proved a wrong doctrine in the Authorized Version.

D.Lim: And you have crocodile in the KJV. Crocodile breathing fire?

And you have Peacock in the KJV?

And you have charity in 1Cor13 instead of love, agape love.

You want to have bishop instead of overseer or pastor?

You want to make no differentiation between poimen, episcopis, and presbyteros?

You've never heard of anyone's intellect being thwarted because he believed this Authorized Version, have you? And you never will. You've never heard of anyone anytime going astray who embraced the precepts of the Authorized Version, and you never will.

D.Lim: You want charity or love? You want to praise agape and downplay phileo in the reply of Peter to Jesus?

I tell you, I used to laugh with others when a person would try to slander the intelligence, perhaps, of some who say, "Well, if the Authorized Version was good enough for Paul it's good enough for me." You get a lot of ha, he's. Say, that perhaps is true. If this is the Word of God, and Paul had the Word of God, then things equal to the same thing are equal to each other. We have the Book that Paul had! It's true there could be, and perhaps should be, some few corrections of words that are archaic. And a few places where it could read just a little more freely.

D.Lim: Improving upon perfection?

But after all, as I said to the men this morning in the class, just think of the countless millions of dollars of God's money spent on all these versions and translations which could have been spent on God's service. There are 100 of them right now. Think about it.

D.Lim: Bible translating is God�s service. This scholar really has biased opinion and rationale.

The Living Bible

Even the Living Bible, so called, and it breaks my heart to even say "Living Bible," because that sort of indicates that nothing else is living. Even this, you know, and it's not a Bible; it's a paraphrase. And the manuscript was submitted to me before it was ever printed.

D.Lim: The living God can speak through even this Bible. Life is from God, and not independently from paper and ink.

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It's done by one of my best friends; one of the dearest men of God you ever met. There isn't anybody finer than Ken Taylor. When he was home one day in Wheaton, and I was there on a business matter, and they were eating the evening meal, he said, "Would you like to see my family?" And we went in and here were five children on one side and five on the other, and the little mother at one end and the dad at the other end. Beautiful to see; dear, sweet fellow, no question about it.

D.Lim: A father good at telling Bible stories. Lots of practice.

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But he said, "Give me your frank appraisal." I didn't know whose it was. And I wrote him and said, "I don't know whose this is, maybe its one of my good friends, but it should never be printed." You can ask him. He gave me a nice check for my effort, but I felt it should never be printed.

But just think, in something like two years twenty-two million dollars of those books have been sold. Twenty-two million! The royalties have been something like $1.5 million. You multiply that by all the other versions; the countless millions. If the Spirit of God was leading in all this, and if the people really meant to get God's Word out-if that's what they have done deep in their hearts-you know what they would have done? The Spirit of God would have led this way; couldn't have led any other way. They would have taken just one little pinch of these countless millions of dollars and would have had some scholars make these few simple corrections. Nothing about doctrine. These simple corrections, then these other millions would have been used to get this corrected Word out to the ends of the earth.

D.Lim: How cunning! Simple corrections. So simple that they are not shown us.

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When I say corrected, I mean just some of the archaic words such as "he who lets will let until he be taken out of the way." Now we don't use the word that way, but you can find out what it means by taking just a moment to look it up.

D.Lim: Corrected Word or no Bible at all?

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Back in Jeremiah 4:22 we read, "My people are sottish." There wouldn't be two people in the congregations that would know what that means. But I like it because when I looked it up, I found that it had more meaning than any other word you could put there. It means thickheaded. God says, "I can't get through to you because you are thickheaded." And maybe He wants it to stay there. If a person looks it up he gets a better understanding of it than if another word were put in there to change it.

D.Lim: So, correction needed?

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There are places where I believe the Spirit of God led the translators of the Authorized Version. You read their biographies. They were mighty men of God; spent as much as five hours daily in prayer; and some of them knew twenty-some languages. And it was before modernism filled the air, and before their attention was diverted by so many other things, television and so on.

D.Lim: Personal belief again. People better than Erasmus?

That was before many manuscripts were found and made available.

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Actually, after I've listened in so many places to all these arguments and I've listened to the scholars and sat with the translators, to be honest with you I haven't found anything seriously wrong anywhere with the Authorized Version. Really. Really! Just a couple of archaic words that are not in usage today. Well, they could be changed.

D.Lim: Yet, even this scholar did not set out to modernise it.

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I personally don't think the 'thous' and the 'thees' should be changed. God's thoughts are above our thoughts, higher than our thoughts, and these words are expressions of His thoughts, and I like to see it a little different here and there from men's ways and men's thoughts.

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Actually I don't think there is anything wrong with this, and it has been tested for 362 years. Are you ready to throw it overboard because the scholars have come along and said, "Well now, this is better; reads better; you can understand it better?" I mean to tell you, with all their self-justification [of the new easier to read versions], people know less and less about God's Word.

D.Lim: Tested by what? Certainly not by modern people with modern English.

Many readers understand modern English better than KJV English. I for one.

Since the beginning of the 20th century many come to know the working of the Holy Spirit again. Many came to the Lord, milllions upon millions of them, with the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many of them equiped with modern versions. And God can work through them.

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The 1881 English Revised Version

To begin with, the revisers for the 1881 weren't to be revisers, they weren't to bring out a new Book. They were revisers to bring some of the words up to date because the language had changed.

D.Lim: This tradition of revision has followed through to date. The NASB is not just revising some words of the ASV to bring them to date.

Incidentally, God not only knew about Luther ready to present "the just shall live by faith" when He raised up Erasmus, but He knew that the English language would cover the world when He raised up Tyndale to give us the English Bible.

D.Lim: God never indicated that He only uses or raise up perfect people, perfect(incapable of error and sin) Christians to do His work. God has proved through time that He can use anyone for His purpose(eg: Chaldeans, Saul, David, Pilate, Judas, Nero, Moody). Who dares in his pride and blindness claim faultlessness?

Incidentally, the NIV has changed blamelessness of Paul to faultlessness.

But nevertheless, they were to be revisers but the fact is-and believe me, this can't be refuted-there wasn't enough in the Authorized Version to revise to make it worth the while, to cater to the ego of scholars.

D.Lim: Is this why KJV advocates never revise it into modern English? Or is it because of idolatry, they worship it so much as not to touch anything?

So when they saw that there wasn't much to revise, here they had their committee arranged. One was a Unitarian, a man by the name of Smith.

D.Lim: One of the greatest Hebrew scholars whose work many KJV advocates use is Gesenius. TDNT is the work of Liberals. Personal belief has little to do with good scholarship.

That's why you find on verses concerning the incarnation there's something wrong. Such as 1 Timothy 3:16--By common consent great is the mystery of godliness." Don't you believe that the mystery of godliness depends upon what man thinks, or his opinions. The verse continues in the 1881 version-"he who was manifest in the flesh." You've been manifest in the flesh; I've been manifest; [that statement alone is meaningless]. It's God who was manifest in the flesh. Do you see the Unitarian flavor there? He got in some blows somewhere, and that must be one of them.

D.Lim:Not all manuscripts have God there. Were there Unitarians, Liberals in ancient times?

2John v7 is intact for the doctrine of God came and manifested in the flesh.

Only lazy pretext making people like to turn to one verse alone for a doctrine that has indication and record in other parts.

D.Lim: If Christ and God is not spoken of here in 1Tim3v16, it would be ever so boring and redherring to mention something all of us are. And the Spirit here is the Holy Spirit(needless to say) instead of any spirit of mankind. No need to mention that the verse is not talking about alcohol.

NASB has "revealed" used, indicated it is a revelation of a mystery. It is not something of daily occurrence as this scholar is trying to display/reason. Mankind is not revealed in the flesh. Mankind is flesh, born and live out life as flesh. This is not due to any Liberalism or Gnosticism.

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But nevertheless, they didn't have enough to revise. So what are they going to do? Well, two brilliant Cambridge scholars by the name of Dr. Hort and Dr. Westcott had been collaborating on a new Greek text built on the Codex Sinaiticus and the Codex Vaticanus which they believed were the very best manuscripts, held by Rome. So they said to the committee when they saw there wasn't enough to revise-I don't know if they said these exact words, but they said, "We would suggest that we bring about a new version." And they had those men pledge themselves to secrecy that they wouldn't tell anybody about the text they were using until after the book was out. Afraid, I guess that they would be curbed, that the King of England or somebody would prevent them.

D.Lim: "The very best texts we have" is not the same as the very best manuscripts, held by Rome". The later one is about the manuscripts of Rome. The former one is about the best of all there is in the World.

And Mark16v9-20 is there in the RV and NASB. They were claimed to be missed out from the oldest texts.

How would this secret be known to this scholar who claimed he did not know if they said what he purported them saying? Guess work.

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Twice British royalty refused to have anything to do with the 1881 revision. But at any rate it was deception to begin with. Their own text hadn't even been published yet, hadn't stood the scrutiny of the public.

D.Lim: What did the public know? What ability in scholarship does the public has? Ask anyone in the street what A, B and Aleph are. How did the public scrutinise the text when they were and are no Bible scholars? Does this not make a fool of higher education and scholarship?

How irresponsible such saying/accusation is!

So the 1881 was built upon that. And the only fundamentalist who stayed on the board was Dr. F.H.A. Scrivener, and before he died he felt he had to break his promise to this group of men, and he let the world know that they took advantage after advantage in the text. That's where we've gotten the number of something like 5,337 deletions. [That was his count.] And he said, "Every time I raised an objection I was voted down, and they took liberties with God's Word."

D.Lim: What liberty? And how?

See lies and accusation can somehow be covered up and taught as the truth!

He was right there at almost every meeting, and he revealed that to the world before he died.

D.Lim: What revelation was published that this scholar could not remember or name as his support?

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Now when the 1881 came out many people liked it because it said Jehovah instead of Lord in many places. Well, that's minor; you can say that with the Authorized Version. But it was scarcely 10 years before it proved to be failure. That is, it didn't get anywhere.

D.Lim: This is one accuracy that the KJV lacks. Mistake is mistake, no matter how small how minor you like calling it. How can the only perfect Word of God has an obvious mistake?

The counterpart ASV took off in the USA. And the later NASB also took off. ASV can be found in Bible CD-ROM nowadays. Quite some preachers use it.

But where is Erasmus and Received Text in the public domain? Talking about public scrutiny as if they were and are scholars knowing black and white, differentiating left from right, where is their scholarship in appreciating and using such text?

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The 1901 American Standard Version

Within 10 years they started communicating with spiritual leaders on this side of the water to work with them on another printing called the 1901 edition, feeling, I suppose, that if the Americans cooperated that they would have a wider sales range. Well, just think. When the 1901 came out it had gone 10 years when it was practically a failure, because in 1911 in the third centenary of the Authorized Version the publishers had 34 outstanding scholars to go over the Authorized Version to see what legitimate changes could be made here and there. You know, they took the 1901 edition and they could only take two out of every 100 corrections in that. Only two percent. And immediately they discovered that the 1901 was not trust worthy. And it didn't go very long until it died out. In all of my pastorates I can only remember one person who owned one of those 1901 American Standard Version Bibles.

D.Lim: Honesty of these scholars is brought to question in the first place. Their Bible knowledge is also a matter of doubt.

An assumption is placed here that the scholars were knowledgable and honest to start with.

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The New American Standard Version

Back in 1956-57 Mr. F. Dewey Lockman of the Lockman Foundation [contacted me. He was] one of the dearest friends we've ever had for 25 years, a big man, some 300 pounds, snow white hair, one of the most terrific businessmen I have ever met. I always said he was like Nehemiah; he was building a wall. You couldn't get in his way when he had his mind on something; he went right to it; he couldn't be daunted. I never say anything like it; most unusual man. I spend weeks and weeks and weeks in their home, real close friends of the family.

D.Lim: This is no proof of integrity or scholarship of this accusing scholar.

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Well, he discovered that the copyright [on the American Standard Version of 1901] was just as loose as a fumbled ball on a football field. Nobody wanted it. The publishers didn't want it. It didn't get anywhere. Mr. Lockman got in touch with me and said, "Would you and Ann come out and spend some weeks with us, and we'll work on a feasibility report; I can pick up the copyright to the 1901 if it seems advisable."

Well, up to that time I thought the Westcott and Hort was the text. You were intelligent if you believed the Westcott and Hort. Some of the finest people in the world believed in that Greek text, the finest leaders that we have today. You'd be surprised, if I told you, you wouldn't believe it. They haven't gone into it just as I hadn't gone into it; [they're] just taking it for granted.

D.Lim: So are the audience of KJV advocates, taking things for granted.

At any rate we went out and started on a feasibility report, and I encouraged him to go ahead with it. I'm afraid I'm in trouble with the Lord, because I encouraged him to go ahead with it. We laid the groundwork; I wrote the format; I helped to interview some of the translators; I sat with the translators; I wrote the preface. When you see the preface to the New American Standard, those are my words.

D.Lim: Poor scholarship even at that point. He ought to be equiped with the facts of KJV and the poor and rejected texts, if, as he claimed, the public in 1881 could scrutinise the RV and ASV. If the public could do so, so much more scholars in that particular field.

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I got one of the fifty deluxe copies which were printed; mine was number seven, with a light blue cover. But it was rather big and I couldn't carry it with me, and I never really looked at it. I just took for granted that it was done as we started it, you know, until some friends across the country began to learn that I had some part in it and they started saying, "What about this, what about that?"

D.Lim: Negligence.

Dr. David Otis Fuller in Grand Rapids [Michigan]. I've known him for 35 years, and he would say (he would call me Frank; I'd call him Duke), "Frank, what about this? You had a part in it; what about this, what about that?" At first I thought, Now, wait a minute; let's don't go overboard; let's don't be too critical. You know how you justify yourself the last minute.

D.Lim: Negligence as justification.

But I finally got to the place where I said, "Ann, I'm in trouble; I can't refute these arguments; it's wrong; it's terribly wrong; and what am I going to do about it?" Well, I went through some real soul searching for about four months, and I sat down and wrote one of the most difficult of my life, I think.

I wrote to my friend Dewey, and I said, "Dewey, I don't want to add to your problems," (He had lost his wife some three years before; I was there for the funeral; also a doctor had made a mistake in operating on a cataract and he had lost the sight of one eye and had to have an operation on the other one; he had a slight heart attack; had sugar diabetes; a man seventy-four years of age) "but I can no longer ignore these criticism I am hearing and I can't refute them.

D.Lim: Quite a stupid person, not able to refute the nonsense, kind of which I am refuting right here. Who is pretending to be a scholar? Who has degree and qualification cheaper than the web page or paper he used?

The only thing I can do-and dear Brother, I haven't a thing against you and I can witness at the judgment of Christ and before men wherever I go that you were 100 percent sincere," (he wasn't schooled in language or anything; he was just a business man; he did it for the money; he did it conscientiously; he wanted it absolutely right and he thought it was right; I guess nobody pointed out some of these things to him). "I must under God renounce every attachment to the New American Standard."

D.Lim: Would we say the same about the sincerity of this scholar? Sincerity is not a measurement of truth and integrity.

This scholar was trying to induce an impression that his friend does everything for money(not just his business).

I have a copy of the letter. I have his letter. I've shown it to some people. The Roberts saw it; Mike saw it. He stated that he was bowled over, he was shocked beyond words. He said that was putting it mildly, but he said, "I will write you in three weeks, and I still love you. To me you're going to be Franklin, my friend, throughout the course." And he said, "I'll write you in three weeks."

But he won't write me now. He was to be married. He sent an invitation to come to the reception. Standing in the courtroom, in the county court by the desk, the clerk said, "What is your full name, Sir?" And he said, "Franklin Dewey . . . " And that is the last word he spoke on this earth. So he was buried two days before he was supposed to be married, and he's with the Lord. And he loves the Lord. He knows different now.

I tell you, dear people, somebody is going to have to stand. If you must stand against everyone else, stand. Don't get obnoxious, don't argue. There's no sense in arguing.

D.Lim: Yet this scholar was laying out argument for his case. Who would deny anybody a truthful argument for the truth?

He was too naïve to imagine he won the case.

But nevertheless, that's where the New American stands in connection with the Authorized Version. I just jotted down what these versions, translations, and paraphrases are doing. Consider:

One, they cause widespread confusion, because everywhere we go people say, What do you think of this; what do you think of that? What do young people think when they hear all of this?

D.Lim: There is certainly difference between enquiries, research, and confusion. Honest student need always ask questions to get better; not that anything is found to be unacceptable at first place.

Scholars especially teachers have duties to elucidate and teach; expounding on what is lacking. This is not to say what is found is automaticly a mistake.

Two, they discourage memorization. Who's going to memorize when each one has a different Bible, a different translation?

D.Lim: Ease in memorization cannot overtake accuracy and scholarship.

The easiest memorization is to remember nothing. That is to say the easiest is not necessarily the best for the souls. Greater effort is need for greater benefit, many of times.

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Three, they obviate the use of a concordance. Where are you going to find a concordance for the Good News for Modern Man and all these others? You aren't going to find one. If we're going to have a concordance for every one; you're going to have a lot of concordances.

D.Lim: Some people are shear lazy. Some are so mean that they do not want to spend on Biblical matters.

What public scrutiny were there? People just did not know. Who owns up to this fact?

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Four, they provide opportunity for perverting the truth. There are all these translations and versions, each one trying to get a little different slant from the others. They must make it different, because if it isn't different why have a new version? If makes a marvelous opportunity for the devil to slip in his perverting influence.

D.Lim: Staying and dwelling on old mistakes is already perversion. Not trusting in the Lord God for new adventure is pride, is rebellion, is sin. Worshipping one old translation is idolatry.

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Five, these many translations make teaching of the Bible difficult. And I'm finding that more and more as I go around the country. I mentioned this thing the other night. How could a mathematics professor or instructor teach a certain problem in a class if the class had six or eight different textbooks? How about that? How could you do it?

D.Lim: The quality of the audience is poor to start with. The teacher is also poor. People have been left in the dark too long.

This scholar is developing another nonsense. Mathematics do not change from one textbook to another. 1+1=2 no matter which text you turn to. This is the rigidity of Mathematics. Assignment can be different. Teaching is down to the teacher, and not the textbook. A bad teacher, of course would just read from a textbook.

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Six, they elicit profitless argumentation. Because everywhere we go they say this one is more accurate. Which one is more accurate? How do they know? And this is not a reflection against those saying this, because I would have done this a few years ago. In Christian Life magazine I got this. My dear friend, Dr. George Sweeting, president of Moody Bible Institute-one of the sweetest, dearest men you've ever met; he's wonderfully named-he's starting today right down near my home at southern Keswick, and if I'm back by the end of the week I expect to see him and I'm going to talk to him about these things. When he was asked for his recommendation for the New American Standard, he said, 'I like it because it reads freely." You can read it yourself; it's in the ad in various magazines. And he said, "I particularly like it because it's so near to the original." I'm going to say, "Now George, what is the original? Have you seen it?" There isn't any original.

D.Lim: The nonsense is that KJV advocates keep saying they have the best and argue about it. And this scholar is suggesting to do away with argument, the type he himself was using.

D.Lim: No original now? What is Erasmus then? This scholar is burning his own boat>

Who believe the Received Text is the unchanged truth? If there is no original and no one has seen the original, what authority has the AV/KJV got? It is just another translation of some manuscripts. The modern translations not just have the advantage of modern English; they have much more manuscripts to consider with for finding out what is more likely to be the truth.

If no one has seen the original (truth is no one has seen it, and KJV advocates lie), every manscript must be weighed and considered for their merit. There is no certainty for a text that is absolutely the Word of God untained and unaltered from the very fist autograph. The KJV is not such an infallible Word of God since we do not have the original autograph to prove it is so, and its advocates are largely anti-Charismatics having no gift of prophesy, no gift of discernment, no gift of knowledge, no gift of wisdom, no vision and no dream to authenticate their belief and case.

They are poor liars looking to indoctrinate weak minds and poorly educated fools drowning in their own pride.

Lest I forget it in one of these questions, somebody said, "How can we know that we have the whole truth?" Well, just simply by believing God. And what do I mean by that? John 16:13 "When he the Spirit of Truth is come he will guide you into" how much? Tell me. Tell me, now. "All truth." And if we don't have all truth, the Holy Spirit isn't doing His work. We have to have all truth for Him to lead us into all truth. And there are many other passages which teach this.

D.Lim: Many of the users of Good News Bible, NIV and NASV also have simple belief in God. They trusted God for their lives as well.

So, the Spirit of Truth has come, and there are many anti-Charismatics chilling in their shrinking churches, mocking the ever growing Charismatic churches, some of which use the KJV as well. The Spirit so moved that the public without knowing much Greek and Hebrew and textual criticism could scrutinize works of scholarship and translation. The Spirit so moved that the church has Liberalism crept in and dominated most of the universities. The Spirit also has Europe dominated by Liberalism. The whole truth? Who has that? Still asking what about this and what about that? How come they do not know after having the whole truth?

The teachers are blind leading the blind.

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If we could hear His voice we would have no trouble learning His Word from the Authorized Version. Let me tell you this: You might not be able to answer the arguments, and you won't be [able to]. I can't answer some of them, either. Some of these university professors come along and say, What about this; what about that? They go into areas I haven't even had time to get into.

D.Lim: So, the accusation is that those who have trouble learning from the AV could not or might not be hearing His voice. A sweeping condemnation.

Cannot answer the argument with the whole truth? What a paradox! What a contradiction! Why not have some humbleness and wait for the Lord God?

The public could scrutinize two scholarly translation quickly and could not answer some of the questions they put down with their judgement?

Having the whole truth without the whole knowledge?

No time to get into the whole truth? Just know you have it all?

Nonsense is usually something without rational/reasonable answer.

The very reason that they are not answered with satisfactory answer is because they are nonsense.

As I said to you a couple of minutes ago. You don't need to defend yourself, and you don't need to defend God's Word. Don't defend it; you don't need to defend it; you don't need to apologize for it. Just say, "Well, did this version or this translation come down through the Roman system? If so, sound me out. Whatever you say about Erasmus and Tyndale, that's what I want."

D.Lim: God can defend His own work.

Just where were the manuscripts Luther and Tyndale used before Henry VII? All English have some Roman root. There are the Oxford and Cambridge dictionaries, but English is not owned or monopolized by any of these 2 institutes. Some manuscripts were used by the Roman Catholic Church, but this institute does not own them. Their root sprung from the time of Christ. God owns everything.

Did Erasmus and Tyndale monopolized and owned a groups of manuscripts, keeping them safe from Roman Catholic scholars and institution down the centuries?

Where did they get these manuscripts in the first place?

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And besides this, we've had the AV for 362 years. It's been tested as no other piece of literature has ever been tested. Word by word; syllable by syllable. And think even until this moment no one has ever found any wrong doctrine in it, and that's the main thing. He that wills to do the will of God shall know the doctrine.

D.Lim: Verily? Wherefore? Suffer me to say the majority of modern listeners do not know much of what the reader is telling.

Unto is under, going underneath or until. . . .?

What kind of wise guy speak like that nowadays?

And who is this Jehovah? And what is YHWH? So many preachers are mistaken as from cults when they use the Name. The KJV tradition has produced an ignorant public which does not even know the name of God. How then can they scrutinize?

Well, time's up. Let's be people of the Book. It took my mother to heaven; and my dad, my grandfather, my grandmother. It was Moody's Book; it was Livingstone's Book. J.C. Studd gave up his fortune to take this Book to Africa. And I don't feel ashamed to carry it the rest of my journey. It's God's Book.

D.Lim: Let us bring the Bible to people. God can speak by His Spirit in the hearts of lost souls.

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" Our Father, we thank Thee and praise Thee for Thy Word. Help us to love it, and preach it, and teach it and tell everybody we can the Good News through Thy Word. In Jesus' name. Amen."

D.Lim: Preaching the Word and elucidate believer we will do until we have run the race.

Brethren, humble yourselves before the Most High and wait on Him. Preach the saving grace and saving faith. Bring in the harvest.

O not resist the Spirit. Neither insult Him nor grief Him.

Ask for His gifts and accept them.

The people of God need power from on high.

Beware of idols.

Rev. Dr. David C. S. Lim is the Denominational Head of the Church of God Jesus Christ

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Re: missing books

Posted by Rev. Debbie on November 9, 2004, 7:21 pm, in reply to "Re: missing books"

If you are interested in reading these "missing books" they can be found in the King James Version Bible - 1611 Edition, which may be ordered here:

http://www.kjvstore.com/

They are contained in a separate section entitled "The Apocrypha" and are written in the old English style. (This 1611 KJV Bible also contains detailed historical and translator notes which I've found to be a useful study resource.)

If you prefer a more modern translation of "The Apocrypha", I suggest The New Jerusalem Bible (a Catholic Bible), which may be ordered here:

http://www.christianbook.com/Christian/Books/product?item_no=93207&event=1003OTH

D.Lim: The fact that the KJV/AV had the Apocrypha in it in the beginning and had taken these books out in recent edition show that this work is undergoing changes, whereas the Word of God is said to be unchanged and unchanging.

The NASV like the NKJV has 66 books, as in the majority of Protestant Bible translations.

Posted by Reverend Dr. J.D.Skipworth on November 10, 2004, 2:41 am, in reply to "missing books"

Another Bible that has these books under cover is the Third Millennium Bible which you can find more information on as well as order if interested at http://www.tmbible.com/

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For just personal reasons I feel the 66 books are inspired yes but these other books are at least worthy of readying by Christians and worthy of some study by any Minister for the relative content of the books.

Always remember to have prayer for the Holy Spirits guidance when in study of Gods word and keep Jesus our Lord and Savior close to your thoughts also.

May all find Gods blessed love in the Word.

D.Lim: Some Good News Bible also contain the additional books.

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