When my own mom was 8 she lost her mom to cancer. Having been assaulted at the tender age of 5 she couldn’t turn to a “man?for they were frightening. She prayed to the Holy Mother saying she needed a mommy! Our Lady answered that prayer and gave her comfort and love. When mom was 16 and contemplating suicide Mary brought her Son to mom and handed mom’s care over to her Son. Jesus, from then on, was mom’s true support. She again gave support when mom was convinced she’d never have a daughter, namely me. Again the Blessed Mother taught her to reach out to Jesus for all her needs.

I pray that you see, through this testimony, that Mary is a true mother who does all she can in support of her Son. She knows and understands that some of us imperfect beings need extra care (TLC) to approach the Lord. And she gives that love and support, so that all can know Jesus and God, regardless of how weak their spirits are.

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I respect your feelings and your beliefs. However, I believe that the Bible is the inspired, infallible and living Word of God. The Bible does not reflect your views on Mary.

The Holy Spirit is called our Comforter and the One to "guide us into all truth". Not Mary.

There is only one Redeemer mentioned in scripture. That would be Jesus the Son of God, the sacrificial lamb, slain before the foundations of the world.

The Bible does not indicate that Mary fills any ongoing, intercessory role for the saints (that's us). Only Jesus the Son does this.

Please forgive if I offend. That is not my intent But I feel compelled to stand by the Holy Scriptures, not a religious traditon, or even human experiences (my own or someone else's).

Blessings to you, my sister.

Terrie

Pope John II has stated that Mary is "Co-redemptrix" in his papal teachings. For example, in 1985, in Guayaquil, Ecuador, the pope said: "Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes?of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. ?In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God?(Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity. ?In fact Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inside the Vatican, July 1997, p. 23).

In his general audience address of April 9, 1997, the pope said: "Mary ?co-operated during the event itself [the crucifixion] and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. SHE ALONE WAS ASSOCIATED IN THIS WAY WITH THE REDEMPTIVE SACRIFICE THAT MERITED THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. IN UNION WITH CHRIST AND IN SUBMISSION TO HIM, SHE COLLABORATED IN OBTAINING THE GRACE OF SALVATION FOR ALL HUMANITY. ?In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman?(cf. Jn 2:4; 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, LET US TURN TO MARY, IMPLORING HER HELP IN ALL OUR NEEDS" (Vatican Information Service).

In his general audience for July 30, the pope continued his theme of talks on Mary, saying: "As the Mother of all the Lord’s disciples (cf. Jn 19:26), MARY OFFERS HER INTERCESSION AND AID TO ALL WHO JOURNEY TOWARDS THE FULLNESS OF THE LORD’S KINGDOM. As the Bride and Temple of the Holy Spirit, she encourages us to imitate her openness to the workings of the Spirit and to live in constant, loving communion with the Blessed Trinity."

Pope John Paul II has exalted Mary even in his most official documents. In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer), published March 25, 1987, the pope referred to Mary as "Mediatrix" three times, and as "Advocate" twice.

We should not hide from truth. Do you think it is attractive to "outsiders" that we speak of living in truth yet we get angry when someone shows us what the leaders believe or say? I don't think you do. But it does seem that way, because with your response to a post of facts without opinion.

As for looking at other "denominations" we should in a heart that we want to learn. We should learn from our mistakes as well as from what they say is true.

Most Christians both protestants and catholics will bash Jews for having their Talmud which is for lack of a better word their "church fathers" tradition. Yet when it comes to their own Talmud, they go down fighting to justify their use of it and exaltation of traditions of the elders over the the Commands of Elohim. Should this be?

As for my own faith in Yeshua, I think that it would be a safer bet to do it exactly as it is written in the Scriptures then follow man. I except some things from all Christian denominations, including Catholic's at the same time rejecting most.

I wonder if Elohim will say to me in judgement "Jeremy, oh Jeremy,,, you followed my Scriptures to much. You should have listened to those saying that it was ok to build your doctrine from other sources." I do wonder.

Just my thoughts. As before you make your opinion on what you want. I never stated any "negitive" statements about your "sect" or any other. My understanding bashing would be more of stating a bunch of slams like they are jerks or $%$#$^%&* dummies. I did not. I only posted what Pope John II has said. Take it as you will.

Blessings

As evangelicals we are to base our beliefs on the Bible. We know that every group has traditions, but the Bible is the final authority.

1 Tim. 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

It is the Lord Jesus Christ who saves, and He alone.

Re: Mary as co-redemptrix ?

I agree that the brother has a right if not a duty to post factual messages which were well thought out. Besides, why all the hard feelings over the Catholic church. There is no reason to bash nor defend them. They are simply an orginization. They can not 'grant' you admission into Heaven, nor can they 'doom' you to Hell, even if they say that they can. They are only sacred by their own doctrine. If, as an organization, they espouse things which are not Biblical, then they are simply wrong just like most other religious organizations on various issues. We, as purportedly saved individuals, must warn others of all misleading doctrine. Remember that it is not ok to be even a little wrong when leading God's people. It doesn't matter what your organization is named or how old it is. Remember that there are other religious orders older the the RCC, but that doesn't make them correct either. In conclusion, we must preach against all wrong teaching by any organization, because the only church that is of any consequence is the true church of God, the believers who have received salvation.

In Jesus' name,

Rev. Dr. Rob

\o/ \o/ \o/

I had met a man of Polish decent that shared this with me: His mother, while in the death camps of WWII found strength and faith by prayer to Mary the mother of Jesus. She survived. He told me that for that teaching, he always prayed to Mary also. I found myself telling the man that I would not intefere with his faith, but always found occasion to remind him of true faith whenever he gave women undue lustful attention or was profane in his communication. Seeing he had no apparant fear of God leads me to consider that he believed he was 'covered' for his sins

What I realise as I grow older in the Lord and as a natural man, is faith based on what we get does not produce much virtue within me. It does comfort my flesh for a time though.

The commandments were given to us for our good that we may be whole and Jesus, Yeshua, reduced the law to 2:

Mt22:37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

It is the first commandment that we all fall short of even when we feel we're doing pretty good with the second.

There is great safety in following the words given to us by the Lord and not to turn aside to either the left or right in our beliefs.

I cannot condem others for their faith, but must give an answer for what I did or didn't do reflecting his commandments. In these last days, if it were possible, even the very elect will be deceived.

Our worship must be in Spirit and Truth. Spend no time seeking any comfort from any of His creation but from GOD alone.

Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

But the Spirit is gentle and kind to me. So it is that I should be with others and restrain from allowing my members to used for offence (thereby breaking the law of Love).

We all need to allow the Holy Spirit of God to work through our members and build up the kingdom and not to serve the evil one, His enemy and the enemy of our souls.

The Word does not change, we can find great comfort in following the very Judge of our souls knowing it will still stand as we stand before HIM face to face.

\o/ \o/ \o/

I WAS RAISED CAOTHOLIC,BUT NOW I AM A CHRISTIAN

WITH DIFFERENT VIEWS ON THINGS.

I LIVE BY THE SCRIPTURES AS THE ONLY WAY TO HEAVEN IS THROUGH JESUS.

HOWEVER,MARY WAS A VITAL PART OF THE BIG PICTURE.

GOD CHOSE HER AS THE CHANNEL TO SEND US JESUS IN HUMAN FORM.SHE HAD A GREAT PART IN THE LORDS WORK.BUT.....SHE IS ONLY THAT,THE "HUMAN" MOTHER OF JESUS.

BUT SISTER MARY,IF IT HELPS YOU REACH THE FATHER AND IT GIVES YOU PEACE,SO BE IT.JUST REMEMBER,IT IS ONLY JESUS THAT SAVED US WITH HIS BLOOD.

GOD BLESS YOU,

IN HIS NAME,

REV. LISA

D.Lim: As overseers we are commissioned to feed the lamb, to watch over the flock. There is nothing any sheep/lamb has or experienced that overseers are not entitled to judge and correct.

Ultimately everything is between the believers and God. While we are on Earth in this World it is prudent to warn and to be warned, to admonish and to be admonished.

Any sheep that does not listen to the shepherd really belong to some other fold. It does not partake any communion in/with this fold.

We bid them: A Dieu. To God we commit their souls.

Thank you for those words of truth. People need to remember, that the trinity consists of 3:

God-Jesus-HolySpirit.

Posted by Rev. mary on October 18, 2004, 6:40 pm, in reply to "Re: The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it..."

What other roads? Jesus said to come to the father only through Him.

The Holy Spirit always points to Christ and no where else.

Remember, the path is narrow, and we are not to fall to the wayside (wayside: another road).

Amen, you stated the truth in a short, perfect way. Being an ex-catholic, it is now easy to see how comforting wrong concepts can be if given as fact by a misguided institution. There is one way to God as scripture states: Jesus. If anyone can find real Biblical basis (not somehow inferred or derived) for the theory of Mary being a "believer's" link to Jesus or God, please let us all know. That would change everything.

Rev. Dr. Rob

D.Lim: Jesus told us that, if we/you love Him/Jesus/Yeshua we/you follow His commandments.

Believers are to receive the Holy Spirit(who is God). Greater is He who is in you than any dead person or saint or creature.

The 12 disciples walked and lived with Christ. He is approachable. They did not walk with His mother Mary.

Luke1v31 � There was no intercourse.

Luke1v34 � Mary knew not how it was done. The Spirit took charge, and the angel annouced it.

Luke1v37 � It is a matter of the Word of God.

And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation.

D.Lim: Holy is His Name! Not any Holy Mary Mother of God. We are considering His Mercy; not His inclination to Mary.

We have to turn Godward, and avoid idolatry.

And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

D.Lim: We have one advocate with the Father. No intermediate saint or Mary or Joseph.

Jesus Christ is the righteous. No Mary the righteous. For all have sinned.

Jesus/Yeshua is approachable.

Our duty is to keep His commandments. No soft spot.

Do you know Him?

Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

D.Lim: God is already with us. We may boldly reach up to Him. No need for mediation. We have the Holy Spirit given to us. Emmanuel.

There is also the tradition of dormition � that Mary the mother of Jesus did die. She is amongst the dead saints, resting from work.

For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

D.Lim: Jesus gave the definition of his mother and brothers and sisters. Praying to Mary opens up the door of praying to everybody, for all who do the will of God are His brother, His sister, and mother. This is Bible teaching. Observing the motherhood of Mary does not make you holy or right. You cannot approach God or please God via any person or creature. Praying the Rosary or praying Hail Mary is not. You cannot follow both Bible teaching and tradition that contradicts the Bible.

Look at the cross. Look at the Lamb that was lifted up. Look to Christ Jesus/Yeshua.

Praying to Mary of any kind is sinning against God by not observing and doing His will, His commandments. Not looking at the cross of redemption. Not worshipping the Lamb.

Mary devotion is sin. Devotion to Mary of any kind is not part of the end things and not part of the new World(heaven and earth) as already revealed to us in Revelation.

Re: The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it...

Mary, the mother of our Lord, certianly deserves the respect and attention she is given. Who knows how many other young ladies God approached before He found one who was willing to let her reputation be ruined and her heart broken? She conceived Jesus in the same way that God created the universe...by His spoken Word. Luke 1:38 says that Mary gave her permission first ("let it be unto me...) and then she says how it is or will be done "according to thy word," just like God speaking all things into existance at Creation. Gabriel describes for her the process in which it will happen in Luke 1:35. The Holy Spirit will come upon you...these words describe, in their root meaning, the same thing in Genesis when the Holy Spirit brooded over the face of the formless void. The root words in Genesis paint a picture of the Holy Spirit brooding, much like a hen, settling into the process of nesting and laying an egg. Jesus, by His own spoken Word, was birthed by the Holy Spirit into Mary's womb and became the Word as described in John 1.

Mary herself becomes a potent prophetic symbol in that she conceives without the seed of man. She also becomes the symbol of Mother Church, the loving caring place where God's children received nurture, care, discipline and a heritage to pass on.

Mary is also part of the vast cloud of witnesses referred to in Hebrews 12:1 and the whole chpater of Hebrews proceding. She is not God, or is our Redeemer. She, like all other saints of God, watch us and cheer us on and pray with us...the best description I ever heard of saints is that we don't pray to them, we ask them to pray with us. I find great power and comfort in that and since she was highly favored by God as mentioned in Luke 1, I think she probably has some clout.

Any vision of Mary can be descerned to be true by the following test: If she is pointing your adoration and devotion to her Son, then it is a true vision from God. If she is pointing to herself or some other person or thing, it is a deceptive trick from the enemy. No mother would make the sacrifices she made, go through the pain and sorrow she went through and then distract our attention away from Him.

In short, if Mary does not distract from your intimacy and devotion to Jesus, then more power to you. If she is a substitute for Him, then you need to repent of it and stop causing her sorrow by not fully adoring her Son. And, ultimately, the only one who can tell if Mary is a distraction or not is you. That is between you and God. No one should make you feel bad about your appreciation of Mary. Her role in a Christians' life is appropriate.

Thanks for bringing this up. Very interesting conversatin all around and I learned a lot.

Re: The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it...

Posted by Brother Douglas on October 19, 2004, 3:22 pm, in reply to "The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it..."

Once again, I come on to look at posts and sincerely enjoy the fellowship with my brothers and sisters. Again, I see a debate on something that a catholic has posted. This is borderline heartbreaking to me. I can understand different views on different subjects. I can understand why some folks have a problem with tradition in todays christian society. If christians are right about how they interpret the Word of God, and catholics are wrong about their interpretations of the Word, then come judgement day we will have to answer for our words as well as actions. Even if those words werent actually said but typed on a message board for this is in some ways our voice. I grew up United Pentecostal with a Mormon Mom and a Southern Baptist preacher as a father. I am now catholic and most of the time I dont feel like I am catholic by choice. It's where the Lord has lead me to be. It's OK to question anothers belief, but at NO TIME is it OK to bash another. No matter how nice you try to sound bashing is bashing and that is what breaks my heart in here. After all Brother Dave has said in his Home page here that we should try to come together as one instead of a certain type of belief. I love each and everyone of you no matter what you think of me because that is what Jesus told me to. I may not agree with you on certain things, but I would at NO TIME EVER give you any reason to think of what I say or How I say what I say as putting your beliefs down or questioning your beliefs validity. Again, Catholics and Christians will make it to the Land, not all of them but the ones who have truly put Christ first and have shown His Love through what we say and I actions. So with all that said, be carefull in how you come across and try not to offend anyone. Right or wrong one day you will have to answer for what you have done. Lets not have to answer for breaking someones heart because we are so stubborn in our own beliefs to think they are the only ways to see Jesus. God Bless You All!!!!!!!

Your Brother in Christ

Brother Douglas

D.Lim: In the days of the OT prophets, condemnation come from time to time and we see people judged and died.

We forget nowadays that prophets (even modern day ones) have the authority of God to judge and condemn, taking lives with their understanding.

They have all the godly right to bash anyone outright in front of any others. This is the Divine Faith.

Brother Dave is no God and is not acting according to Divine Commission. The Word of God remains the standard for all saints. This Brother Douglas is steering from the commandments of Christ(The Word of God) in favor of no judgement and unity in the dark. No criticism is not any Biblical standard any Christian must follow.

Ungodly acts and believes must be put down sooner or later. Darkness must be exposed. Christians ought to speak out against sin and evil.

Re: The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it...

The Virgin's true role is to bring people to her Son. Once you have accepted her Son her role in their life is over. She is simply there for the spiritually weak and impovershed.

D.Lim: This is to say that those who turn to this Virgin Mary have not yet accepted her Son, and therefore her role in their life is not over and yet to play out. This is to put the role of the Holy Spirit aside.

Also, according to the Bible Jesus Christ had Earthly brothers and sister. There is no Biblical Virgin Mary.

The belief and mentioning of the Virgin Mary is in itself a heresy.

Those who are spiritually so weak as to ignore or miss the Holy Spirit and have to turn to the Virgin Mary are possibly so evil to have a lack of Holy Spirit in their hearts and lives.

These ensnared others by their Virgin Mary, may these be Roman Catholics posing as Catholics or Orthodox.

Come to Jesus and know that He is THE REDEEMER!

Re: The Virgin's true role, as I have experienced it...

Let me ask you a question. A woman is lead to accept Christ as her savior by a gentleman on a bus. Is that too unacceptable?

The way to salvation is through Christ, but first one must go to Christ. That means they need to be lead. Would you take that gentle leading hand away from those in need? Or is that this was spiritual through the Virgin that you find questionable?

D.Lim: What a trick!

Who takes the glory, this gentleman or God? To whom would this woman give the ultimate thanks to?

The question is, "Who is behind all these"?

Would you at any time diminish God and cover the Holy Spirit of Christ up?

Would you at any time give/share glory(that belongs to God) to/with any Human agent or angelic agent.

The Holy Spirit works in the heart of the sinners and the saints. This is the reality. Human agents do not work in the heart and make/effect the switch. Devotion is not given to human agents or angelic agents.

In other words, "Devotion to Virgin Mary or to Mary the mother of Jesus is evil and sin."

Virgin worship(worth fellowship) is sin and not a questionable matter.

Kneeling before statue of the Madonna is not praying with the dead Mary of Jesus. This is devotion and idolatry.

Idolatry is sin, and can not be covered up by any reason/excuse of the weak needing another mediator or pointer to God.

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