http://www.cef.org.tw/AV/tong/31.html

… 以，我相信有一 些教會在改教運動以後，連鋼琴（那個時候沒有鋼琴），連風琴，連 所有樂器都搬到教會把它全部毀掉，因為他說「新約聖經沒有琴。」 中，而今天很多靈恩派的教會越大聲，越以為是聖靈充滿，越大聲以 為越讚美上帝，這是很不好的。你慢慢慢慢就會學到，好的音樂在最 安靜的時候產生很大的力量，壞的音樂是用很吵雜的聲音，使你連心 中真正的安靜都失去了。所以這個是很不好的。

No Bible! Only personal narration and opinion and reasoning. People come to know him and

respect him by the introduction of others, by academic title, instead of by revelation of God.

… 以，我相信有一 些教會在改教運動以後，連鋼琴（那個時候沒有鋼琴）

D.Lim: Correct here. The Piano Forte is invented after the start of the Industrial Revolution, with the advent of large casting of steel for piano frame, to take up tons of pulling forces asserted by the large number of tensioned steel strings. The earliest pianos had wooden frame instead. Much weaker sound.

They did not have piano. But they did have many instruments, such as woodwind instruments, organs, and harps. King David in the Bible used harp, and probably played flute while shepherding.

Not using music instrument has to do with ideology rather than the availability of instrument.

D.Lim: This is an expression of ideology. They did not lack instrument. They despised them.

D.Lim: They did not and do not just say there is no piano and instrument in the New Testament.

They rejected the idea of music with instrument even with OT studies. They claim that instruments are only used in Temple worship.

They did not and do not realise that the Shophar has been used in Jewish worship down the centuries to date.

D.Lim: I simply do not know how he conducts his research and form his statistics. All the Charismatic churches I know and fellowship with do not make it a standard to have loud music. And loud music is not used all the time. There are even quiet times. Songs, such as: " Awesome God � by Rich Mullins" are sung loudly with might and yet with a chorus that is without any music instrument. Music instruments are not stationed for loudness.

The famous "More Love, More Power" of Vineyard is sung softly with gentle music.

Pop Christian songs such as "Create in me a clean heart" by Keith Green is sung with piano.

It is the teaching of Scripture that believers have to worship and praise God by making a loud noise sometime(Ps150v5: Praise Him with loud cymbals. .). (For shoutings - Ps126v2,5; Pr11v10)

There is even dancing � Ps149v3; Ps150v4. And King David danced with his might in worship and celebration. 2Samuel 6v14,16. Ps149v3. Sadly this is missed out and forbidden in the "so-called" traditional (anti-charismatic) churches.

Sing to the Lord a new song � Ps149v1. Not just with established historic songs. We are to renew ourselves from time to time, from generation to generation. We need to see God and things anew.

A believer who is close to God, being Spirit-filled, simply want to praise God mightily even in songs of praise. He is no longer dumb and weak, not caring to sing out in praising God.

D.Lim: This preacher sounds as if he is so advance that it takes a long time for other preachers to catch up to his knowledge and appreciation.

D.Lim: Even the Messiah by Handel is singing out loudly for expression of majesty.

In olden days, many pieces of the same instrument are played together for volume(since they did not have amplifiers).

We praise God with gladness. This is no quiet time all the time.

We are on fire. Our blood boils. Is your blood so cold that you cannot care less?

Let God rekindle your hearts and spirits. Let God create in you a new heart. Let God be God.

And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard.

D.Lim: This silence refers to misery and destruction. Read vv 10-20; this is referring to the prophesy of Tyre. This is not a matter of praising God at the assemblies of the saints/elects.

D.Lim: Psalms are for singing out as praise. There is no silent Psalm. Even music instrument and many members of choir are employed in singing psalms before the Lord, especially at the Temple. There is very little silent worship, very few solemn assembly, in which might be short periods of silence.

Waiting for the Lord is not keeping silence for ever. Waiting for the Lord is a part of worship. This is clearly not the totality of worship and praise.

We worship God when we read out from the Word of God. This is no silence. We read out loud. We blow the shophar. This is no silence. We are commanded to get ourselves hear as heralds of the Lord.

Let us not keep our witness silent before forces of darkness and the heathens.

D.Lim: The Chinese version gives a sense of silence of the heart. But this is about waiting for the revelation of God; and not about silence in front of God.

The English version from KJV shows no word for silence.

D.Lim: An antithesis to silence in praising God and getting on the side of God.

This verse is telling us that those who are not helped by Yhwh, the Lord God, will live in silence. So, this reference of silence is not one of joy and peace with God, and adoration of the Divine.

D.Lim: This refers to a particular time of silence at the 7^th seal. This is not a scene of the saints on earth worshipping God with heaven.

The next verse immediately mention much shophar/trumpet sound. The later passage talks about great effects/changes with each of the shophar being blown.

Anounciation is not done in silence.

\o/

About worshipping God in front of His Holiness:

D.Lim: Verse 2 already talks of angelic action. Verse three tells us that they continually utter praise. Non-stop. No silence with their wings(flapping and flying, you do not fly without wing motion. The angels are not described as fixed-wing vehicles) and voices.

Verse 4 tells us there was crying by the angels. No silence in praising, serving the Lord.

Verse 5 tells us that the response of Isaiah is not one of silence.

Put away this lie and this nonsense of silent worship in front of the Majesty of God.

D.Lim: This passage does not duplicate that of Isaiah 6. Verse 8 tells us that the 4 living things/beasts praise God unceasingly, day and night. There is no resting from praise.

Verse 10 tells us that the saints as depicted by the 24 elders did not cease from action. They fell down before the Almighty, worshipped Him and they spoke. They were saying words of praise, glorifying God in verse 11.

D.Lim: We have here, from the revelation of God in the Word of God, that heavenly worship is full of continuous action and words of praise. It is not a matter of motionless silence.

Let us be active for Christ Jesus, for God Almighty.

D.Lim: An imagination of what heaven is like in worship and service with the church on earth.

This preacher philosophied things liberally. Does he claim to be visiting heaven often to discern what is going on up there? Those Christians who had revelation from heaven gave different report to heavenly praise. The songs of Xiao Man give a different picture.

The highest glories is not just silence and weak sounds.

The sounds of many waters is not necessarily quiet.

How often do you see/find believers of anti-charismatic camps prostrating themselves in worship? The majority would not even kneel. Is this all talks with missing action? Something has gone really wrong and wanting, if this is the pattern of worship for this preacher and churches he fellowship with. Rendering highest glory and honor with words and thoughts only?

Sadly Scripture is not quoted here.

D.Lim: The music principles in African native music can be more complicated than Western traditional music. More than one beat can exist in the same song.

Beat is basicly lacking/missing in traditional Western music. Less is not more.

The listeners, without knowing the piece, or reading the score, would not know when to enter and when to exit. Lacking beat is not necessarily giving greatest praise and worship to God.

Worship is not limited to the well-educated ones. People with very little music education may also worship God. Good songs can also lead them into worship, and afford them a share of the praise musically. Music is not the monopoly of some professional musicians of many years of training. Believers must not be left out of worship until they have learned music through years of education and culture. We must not be unBiblical for the sake of personal choice of music and instrument. We must not despise the instruments listed out in the Word of God. They are there for us to praise God with.

D.Lim: The Guitar has a history dated back to ancient Egyptian times. The Guitar is a member of the family of harps. Lute is a kind of Guitar. There are also many types of guitars in central and Latin America not well known to North Americans and other races. Application of guitars is very broad indeed. Some can play Blues, some can play Metal.

Both major and minor scales are played with guitars. Furthermore it plays beats and percussive music as well. Guitars of 12 or more strings are not unknown(out of sight from musicians) to the music world.

The double-bass(vertical acoustic bass) is played in classical concerts as well as in Jazz performance.

Music instruments can be made and used to play many styles of music.

The wind/pipe organ also immitate other wind instruments, such as flutes; and lack characters of some other wind instruments, such as shophar and natural horn, trumpet and saxophone(3 groups of wind instruments). This is to say, the pipe organ is not comprehensive and all encompassing. There are many types of pipes. There are Bamboo, brass, wood, iron. . . and they all sound different.

Piano is precluded from parade, due to its size, weight, moisture sensitivity, and tonal stability.

Electronic keyboards can fit all application(indoors and outdoors), but it is no piano. It plays different. It feels different to the hand and the ear.

Ps92vv2-3: With(On the) 10 stringed lute, and on the harp, to declare Your(God) lovingkindness in the morning. . .

No reference for Piano Forte as a specific instrument. No mentioning of Pipe Organ.

Why insist on things that the Bible does not insist upon or particularly specify? This sounds like Pharisees, keeping people away from the truth, making them miserable.

D.Lim: Rules and rhythm exist in all music.

D.Lim: Jazz and Jazz drums have much more texture and changing beat than traditional Western music. The Saxophone is completely different sound color to traditional Western music.

Much Jazz music have simple bands.

The Djembee has much wider tonality than any Western drum.

Blues express much sentiment.

Rock and Roll is compelling and influential.

In fact, Rock and Roll has so much attraction and influence that when the evil "Stairway to Heaven" is played substantial number of listeners went to commit suicide.

D.Lim: This preacher does not appreciate the complexity and influence of other music.

D.Lim: There are more concerts of Pop/contempory music than Classical music. Much of the listeners are well educated. Many of such educated listeners dance to modern pop music. Very few dance to traditional classical music.

They are paid for as main courses and not as snacks. Some are performed in the best concert halls.

Some modern singers also sing to traditional music instruments with their expression, and merge instruments. The piano, keyboard, trumpet, double-bass, violin, flute are all used in modern pop music.

D.Lim: Just understanding non-sense?

D.Lim: Pop music draws more into the church than classical music. The present generation has to live with modern popular music.

D.Lim: This preacher sees himself as the correct正統 Theology, and all others(at least the majority) as off-lined. You really want to be insulted by him?

D.Lim: He will appear to be more and more stupid and ignorant if he talks about things in even greater detail and differentiation一樣一樣講.

D.Lim: We see pride and destruction crawling out and spreading.

D.Lim: There is bound to be fools somewhere.

D.Lim: Singing new songs to the Lord, no matter how simple they may be, is not selling oneself to anything ungodly.

Having piano music all the time does not make a person holy or holier than others who praise without piano.

Many traditional hymns can be played and sung with simple piano playing, or recorder.

Horns and trumpets always have few notes.

Singing with Classical music and traditional Western music instruments does not always require complicated, prolonged practice and lessons in music.

D.Lim: A shallow question.

D.Lim: A whole being yet void of attitude, and knowledge and training in modern music is a paradox. A music lover do well appreciating music of as many kinds as possible. There are lessons to learn from other discipline.

Music schools, such as the Royal Conservatory of Music, and the University of Toronto Faculty of Arts, also provide education and training on other national and traditional music.

Learning Jazz and African drums music can be a very cultured discipline, worthy of degrees.

D.Lim: There is musical praise, and there is verbal praise. There is musical worship, and there are sacrificial worship such as donation and offering burnt sacrifice and thanks offerings.

The burning animal bodies certainly do not sing. The porstraited bodies do not sing. Yet they are parts of worship. They are worship.

There are times for singing praises. There are times for other action.

Playing piano is not all there is to life.

There is no sound when we worship and get near to God in meditation.

D.Lim: Listening to the Word of God is no singing for sure. This is worship without songs and music.

Some meditation work well with music background. Some needs total silence.

We are to worship God with many different kinds of instruments. Not all can be played together. There is selection in worship and offering.

D.Lim: The charismatic churches also worship God in totality.

Many charismatics rid their dwellings from idols. Many charismatics rid their business from idols. On the contrary, many anti-charismatics cannot care less.

Many charismatics raise their hands everywhere to praise and worship the Lord. "Alleluia" is voiced everywhere. On the contrary, many anti-charismatics find it alien to raise hand or utter the praise of Alleluia. Many anti-charismatics never see or blow a shophar.

Many charismatics have much fasting and worship meetings. In the other hand, many anti-charismatics never fast, teach people not to fast, curse those who do, and find it irritating and indignant to have long worship meeting. Very few anti-charismatics give tithe, less so give freely in their donation. The worship of God with their worldly treasure is very limited. The boasting is massive.

Many charismatics conduct prayer walk to pray and praise God everywhere; and to cast out demons. This is lacking in many lives of anti-charismatics.

D.Lim: There are many kinds of worship. Not all are musical employing music instrument other than the mouth.

D.Lim: True with charismatics.

D.Lim: Sadly this is the situation in many anti-charismatic churches and Theological institutes.

D.Lim: In the Revival Church in China, just one Xiao Man produced over 800 songs. Withing 50 years?!

D.Lim: God will show you what you are missing if you would humble yourselves to repent from sinning against the brethren and against the truth.

Media in Hong Kong is producing great songs every year they are in action.

D.Lim: Those who twist scriptures and abstain from receiving and exercising the gifts of the Spirit form less relation with the Spirit Holy. Lack of vision, lack of dreams. Lack of healing and lack of humbleness. Love is restricted to those who are used by such believers.

D.Lim: Yes, many belivers need to repent, refresh and come to God. Revival is needed.

D.Lim: Nowadays, old songs such as "Amazing Grace" are often sung with guitar or modern music. They are refreshed.

D.Lim: Flesh is weak. People generally need following and ministered to. That is why we have ministers, and shepherds for the flocks. It is not the fault of the believers that they follow leaders. They need help, support, training and care.

D.Lim: 很多的缺陷? There is no lacking of weakness缺陷 in any Christian/believer. Who wants to declare that Dr. Tong is without weakness, that he is perfected in his ways?

D.Lim: In anti-charismatic and traditional camps, many follow Luther, Calvin, Darby, Stott, Moody, Edwards, Finney, Wesley. . . They are all different. Which one is perfect, without weakness?

How is the Baptist equating the Methodist? How is Anglican with Calvinists? You just make unbalanced choice for affiliation, and wait for opportunities to belittle, and unroot others. Vipers.

D.Lim: Yes, we ought to be rooted in the Truth, and not on Dr. Tong, or any anti-charismatism.

D.Lim: On the other hand, it is not wrong that believers ought to feel at home and joyous worshipping Jehovah God. Christians ought to come home.

Feeling comfortable in worship is no sin.

Enjoying calling God our Father and our Lord is not sin. It is Christian attitude and living.

D.Lim: The original definition of Buddha is no god. Go to India, and you can see the lack of love and care in Hinduism and Buddhism. People are left in poverty, helplessness, class systems and abuse, in the name of reincarnation of souls/entities. You will see cows and their droppings being worshipped in preference to beggars and the orphans. You will see stones being cared for while people are left to starve. Very few fat people.

D.Lim: In modern churches, people are often asked whether they are happy or joyful, instead of whether they are comfortable. The comfort of actualizing yourselves is not often looked at.

D.Lim: Which is prefered? To dose off, sleep in church and through sermons, as common in traditional anti-charismatic churches? Or to worship God with all you have and be very responsive to sermons and speeches, and go home for rest and recreation? People give more and can learn more from the later one.

D.Lim: In charismatic churches, belivers are exprssing their adoration and worship God with all the best they have. Those who can play piano play piano. Those who can play pop music play pop music. Many are given opportunity to join in and worship with whatever little things and skill they have. It is very common to find believers waving tambourines or play guitars in worship. Certain free expression is seen.

On the contrary, in anti-charismatic churches, believers are in pews with rigid bodies, dropped hands, frozen legs, and lumb quiet voices, engaging in learning songs and following professional singers in singing hymns they cannot recite.

D.Lim: Most people cannot sing those songs from beginning to finishing if the hymns are not shown to them during the service/singing.

D.Lim: What have they brought to church to God? Not even the songs they know.

D.Lim: You want to challenge me? Well try to sing/recite 10 songs right now without turning to any book. Try "Silent night", "Amazing Grace". Can you recite the whole song? 4 verses? 6 verses? Stopping after one to two sentence? After first verse? Problems with such classics? How much more problem with other less well-known ones. Need I tell you how ungodly you are, following ungodly leaders and institutes?

Repent! And come out; my people of God!

D.Lim: You see the side effect and legacy of Reformation? Puritanism? Methodist Movement? Baptist Movement? Anti-Charismatic Campaign? Classical Revival?

Not part of Classical Music. Not used in traditional Western and Chinese Christian worship.

Many Christian churches have lost this Biblical tradition.

Many Christians who believe themselves to be orthodox, mainstream, evangelical (due to anti-Charismatic background and tradition/support, are not taught many Biblical truths) ask what the horns are and what for.

Some (eg: Calvinist) churches even go as far as having no music instrument for worship and praise.

The calling to worship with shophar is still being practice by Messianic Jews and some Charismatic Christians. Let us wake up to the calling of the Lord. Let us battle evil with spiritual weaponry.