Part of Marianism

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Pope John II has stated that Mary is "Co-redemptrix" in his papal teachings. For example, in 1985, in Guayaquil, Ecuador, the pope said: "Mary goes before us and accompanies us. The silent journey that begins with her Immaculate Conception and passes through the ‘yes?of Nazareth, which makes her the Mother of God, finds on Calvary a particularly important moment. ?In fact, at Calvary she united herself with the sacrifice of her Son that led to the foundation of the Church; her maternal heart shared to the very depths the will of Christ ‘to gather into one all the dispersed children of God?(Jn. 11:52). Having suffered for the Church, Mary deserved to become the Mother of all the disciples of her Son, the Mother of their unity. ?In fact Mary’s role as Coredemptrix did not cease with the glorification of her Son" (Inside the Vatican, July 1997, p. 23).

In his general audience address of April 9, 1997, the pope said: "Mary ?co-operated during the event itself [the crucifixion] and in the role of mother; thus her co-operation embraces the whole of Christ’s saving work. SHE ALONE WAS ASSOCIATED IN THIS WAY WITH THE REDEMPTIVE SACRIFICE THAT MERITED THE SALVATION OF ALL MANKIND. IN UNION WITH CHRIST AND IN SUBMISSION TO HIM, SHE COLLABORATED IN OBTAINING THE GRACE OF SALVATION FOR ALL HUMANITY. ?In God’s plan, Mary is the ‘woman?(cf. Jn 2:4; 19:26), the New Eve, united to the New Adam in restoring humanity to its original dignity. Her cooperation with her Son continues for all time in the universal motherhood which she enjoys in the order of grace. Trusting in this maternal cooperation, LET US TURN TO MARY, IMPLORING HER HELP IN ALL OUR NEEDS" (Vatican Information Service).

In his general audience for July 30, the pope continued his theme of talks on Mary, saying: "As the Mother of all the Lord’s disciples (cf. Jn 19:26), MARY OFFERS HER INTERCESSION AND AID TO ALL WHO JOURNEY TOWARDS THE FULLNESS OF THE LORD’S KINGDOM. As the Bride and Temple of the Holy Spirit, she encourages us to imitate her openness to the workings of the Spirit and to live in constant, loving communion with the Blessed Trinity."

Pope John Paul II has exalted Mary even in his most official documents. In his encyclical Redemptoris Mater (Mother of the Redeemer), published March 25, 1987, the pope referred to Mary as "Mediatrix" three times, and as "Advocate" twice.

Re: Mary as co-redemptrix ?

I read here that it is okay for others to speak their minds if one speaks from conviction. I would ask the same consideration for me. Perhaps I spoke boldly. But given the chain of events (moving from one post to another)in this matter, I called it as I saw it...a sad situation that could have been tabled in a better way. I prayed in this matter and felt convited to speak out and ask for gentleness and peace. But I do apologize if I offended as that was not my intent as my message was in the Spirit from the heart, advocating a better way in Christian love. I feel it is best to move on from this topic at this point (though I do remain avaialable to brother Dave).

In the love of the Lord...

D.Lim: Is it not strange that this better way is not demonstrated, to show what it is?

Is the Spirit so weak that it can not demonstrate?

Strange that RCs do not demonstrate this better way in Christian love in the first instance, but set out to teach those who protest(stand for the truth).

Re: Mary as co-redemptrix ?

Quote:

"It is the Lord Jesus Christ who saves, and He alone."

Response:

I am not aware that our RC or O brothers and sisters reject this concept; I believe, in fact, that it is their belief and mainstay as well. But, perhaps, I’m wrong.

That said, perhaps it is best to allow one of the RC or O tradition to speak on what it is they actually believe rather than post bits of this or that (comments of the pope and such) in an effort to rile feathers by screaming heresy (which is the way I saw it, anyway). That is not posting responsibly in a fellowship format. That is not constructive discourse. That is not study to prove oneself. That is not in keeping with Christian love. There is a better way to table such matters. Clearly, a member of this church was made to feel defensive and hurt by it. I would hope we could do it better than that. That’s all I ask.

D.Lim: The quotation from the current Pope John Paul II RCs follow speak of a different picture to the quotation of Jesus alone being the savior.

From time to time, we have RCs who think they know their faith better than others by the fact that they are brought up as RCs or that they still remain RCs. Big assumptions are made and forced upon the audience.

One man�s meat is another�s poison. Construction and destruction is a matter of perspective.

D.Lim: The topic was posted by RCs in a teaching stance and caused reaction. The first move did not appear to be a defense instead of an initiation to spread RC teaching/doctrine on an evangelical platform.

The Miryam (Mary) issue

I do not see where Brother Jeremy Ketner stated any information that would obtrusive/offensive and he did not state a formed opinion on the matter. Brother Jeremy simply gave simple quotations from known church fathers. He gave information so those reading could form their own "informed opinions" on the matter; I see nothing wrong with that.

¡@

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Re: The Miryam (Mary) issue

This topic was obviously posted as a continuation of the "Mary, Mother of God" topic; that is clear to see. And being posted as it was, I do feel that it was rather negative in its construction to begin with, quite insensitive at that to those who adhere to RC or O church traditions. Yes. It is okay to educate or warn another if one is worried about false doctrine and the like. But this was done very distastefully, quite like bashing though some say it wasn't. I wonder how some would respond if a RC or O brother or sister posted here admonishing or warning about false Protestant doctrine. I wonder if some would then just sit back and say, "Oh. It's okay for this person to do this as he has a right to warn of false doctrine." I don't think it would simply transpire as such.

Again, I say unity in essentials, liberty in non-essentials. To my knowledge, our RC and O brothers and sisters profess Christ born of the Virgin Mary, His ministry on earth, His death and resurrection, His second coming and salvation through Him alone. I see no need to "warn" about perceived heresy or false doctrine at a fellowship message board, which this essentially is. Unity in essentials...one Body of Christ. Please let us be unified in Christian love here at this message center. If one wants to have a board devoted to matters of heresy, one is free to include that at an individual website. Why spend time arguing or attacking the church traditions of others where essentials are found? The harvest is large and the workers are few. If I have overstepped myself (though the sister's comments would seem to suggest that I, too, have a right to express myself) then I apologize in advance, and I remain available to Brother Dave. By the way: I am not RC or O. I'm simply a Christian who believes in the Body of Christ as demonstrated by unity in essentials and Christian love.

Peace...

D.Lim: Stating facts being distasteful? How about not stating facts, or all the facts, and condemn others for not reading up on the topic, or not knowing the facts by being outsiders?

Who pretend to have the facts?

Who is able to demonstrate with facts and not conjecture?

Every commandment is essential. Christ told us that if we love Him we follow His commandments(that is the whole Bible, not just a few chosen/selected commandments therein, worse still � from extra-Biblical sources).

RC heresies are not perceived heresy, they are false doctrine. Virgin Mary is false doctrine.

False religions harvest people/souls to darkness and death.

Re: The Miryam (Mary) issue

Everybody can post that wants to post...no problem. I think that what Jeremy Ketner wanted someone to do wasexplain their doctrine or how those church fathers based their opinions. THose of us not of the Catholic denomination want to know wherein Scripture to look for these rendered opinions by church fathers. SO I do not think there was any bashing and his post was not distasteful. Again, he posted no opinions of his own.

For instance, if someone wants to know my opinion on a matter I make certain I give what Scriptures I believe support an argument. That way, someone else can take those Scripture references, study them, form their opinion, states their opinion, and it makes for a better discussion where we all might could learn something new or even change or opinions if we desire.

Yes, Marianism is a doctrine not completely understood by some of our group so what is the harm in discussing and examining the issue? I have a son who is married to a Catholic girl...don't you think I would like to understand her a little bit better?

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D.Lim: The facts hurt those who do not function with facts but the very opposite.

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Fr. Chuck, I thought you were sorry for coming down too heavy on people.

The brother has raised a point worth noting, as long as it isn't turned into a "catholic bashing" exercise. (Which is highly unlikely on this board)

It is a bit heavy to decide unilaterally that the dear brother's motive is to stir up trouble, or to "bash" other sections of the body of Christ. Do we actually KNOW his motives??

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Re: Mary as co-redemptrix ?

I'm not really even going to touch the original post in this response, other than to say our group is not Roman Catholic, so we are not in agreement with them on all matters of the faith. However, that said, I have trouble believing that this post was not a "back-handed" type of comment meant to cause trouble. The most dangerous type of rumor, gossip, news story, opinion, etc, is the one that really gives no overt opinion, but does strongly imply something; that way the one making the statement can play the part of the shocked innocent when trouble arises and an argument starts, by saying"I wasn't really trying to say anything at all except to state a fact".

I did note one mistake though, the term Church father in Catholicism is generally reserved for those very early founders and writers in the Church, and not for the more recent Popes.

+Rich

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D.Lim: Good informed opinion can be formed from facts. We need facts to make good informed decision. Guess work can allow more mistake to creep in.

Facts posted can show us that those who are accused of not learning enough, being outsiders of certain sect or faith, indeed have the facts that says contrary to belief , proposition, and teaching of those accusers.

The consequence and fact that people come to attack the poster of facts instead of defending themselves against the fact, or making resolution, shows the little regard and respect they have for knowledge, Godly teaching, Christ the Way the Truth and the Life, and the true pure church.

Little surprise should people have that liars like to lie and not repent to be aligned with the facts and truth.

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Re: Mary as co-redemptrix ?

dude... no one and nothing can be a 'co-redemptrix'... the power of salvation lies squarely and solely on the shoulders of Jesus. Mary was a sinner, just like every other human on the planet (save Jesus). there is only ONE name under heaven given us by which we can be saved. and that name is Jesus....

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