Is Homosexuality Sin ?
Please direct all gay people to read some of the testimonies of ex-gay Christians. It is not a condition they are born with. It can be changed, if not corrected.
We are born with instinct to use violence, to have anger, and to hate. Yet the Word of God teaches us to control them or be overcome. It is not so much of what you have, but how you override and control them for the good.
read the following message *AT YOUR OWN RISK*!!!
Personal Observation of David Lim, from some e-mail discussion.
Homo B: Hey guys,
D: Not addressing Christians as beloved brethren. No expressing family link. There is a sense of alienation.
Homo B: I do not know either of you so the following
statements aren't directed to you - I just want you to know more about where
I'm coming from.
What I have the biggest struggle with is that many people cannot separate
sexual orientation from sexual action.
D: Many simply do not see a separation. Aren't they
continuation, one from another? Homo orientation is not endorsed by the Word
of God. Such orientation do not lead to hetrosexual, natural sexual activities
and union.
God did not make Adam or Eve or their children homo.
Homo B: Many people also think that one can choose their orientation.
D: Ex-gay Christians speak of that. They are life examples of that. They were not outsiders. They were comrades.
Homo B: My response to this is: Are you right-handed or left-handed?
D: Deviation. There is no convincing (no conclusive) scientific test to show that people are born homo.
Anyway, right-handed can become left-handed and vice verse via practice. A stronger hemisphere does not determine orientation. Preferences can be surrendered.
Homo B: When did you choose this?
D: When children are left unattended. When children are told it is alright. When there is no correction.
What is so good about writting lefthanded when the pen is not made for that, words are not formed for that, and equipment are not made for that? You cannot click a camera lefthanded just because you so want to. The button is on the right side. This is not giving in to human right pressure groups.
Homo B: To me, sexual orientation is that basic. It's part of who we are - part that we did not choose.
D: The way of salvation is repentance. You do not get saved by insistence in any orientation towards sin and wickedness.
Homo B: I get frustrated that often when people discover that I'm gay they immediately focus on what goes on behind closed doors.
Paul: Oh! what an orgasm!
D: even Paul thought of that in inspired scripture.
Homo B: People don't seem to get that sexual orientation is much more than just sex.
D: Does God think otherwise? Sin is sin is sin.
Homo B: I found myself fantasizing about men and blocked it out because my parents had always taught me that it was wrong.
D: Fantasy is not about getting into bed and waking up. I believe there is much cover-up here.
Homo B: So, I went to the seminary to hide from myself. Fortunately, God revealed that God had created me and accepted me as a gay man.
D: Coming into mysticism here? The Word of God does not condone this.
Afterall RC church is not scriptural and RC are not by definition born again Christians.
The RC church would have accepted it if their RC God has accepted it. This appear not the case. Just some wishful thinking of homo people directed by Satan and demons. The only lipmus is scriptures.
Homo B: What sweet liberation!!!
D: Really????
Homo B: God also helped me discern that I was not called to ordained ministry.
D: Really???? How come scriptures are not helping him seeing this point?
Homo B: How close I came to becoming a priest
D: RC priesthood is not scriptural. Yet he considered that.
Homo B: just to hide from myself.
D: Hiding is an act of darkness. What is brought out into light is revealed to everybody.
Homo B: That could have been the biggest mistake of my
life with far reaching implications for the Church.
Now I'm left with this elation of God's acceptance and the people who
constantly want to push the person of who I am aside and focus on what they
believe gay people do together.
D: Does Rob not believe the infallibility of the Pope and Vatican? Were RC priests thinking things up by themselves?
Homo B: I wish the Church would let me be more open about who I am so I could be more comfortable.
D: The RC church never requires gay people to hide their identity. It just does not accept gay people as godly and right.
Rob is hiding his intention to selfjustification against the Pope and the RC church. For his own gain - I would say.
Homo B: Perhapse then some people would stop trying to
get me to date their daughters as well. How many different excuses can I come
up with.
I've actually changed which mass I go to and once I changed parishes just
to get away from that.
D: Sounds like running away from normal life-style.
Homo B: I want people to understand. I want to be treated as a person and not some freak. I'm tired of having the Bible thrown in my face.
D: Tired of obeying the Bible? Obeying the Word?
Homo B: I have a BA and 2 MAs in theology and can usually point out a hole in every argument grounded in what people believe the Bible teaches about homosexuality
D: RC Theology doesn't make a person right in thoughts and understanding.
There is the infallibility of the Popes. The Catechisms are to be taken as "LAW".
Homo B: - Actually, the Bible says nothing about homosexuality
D: An egg is an egg, whether its entirety is discussed or not.
Homo B: because the current understanding of the orientation as seperate from action came about some 1800-1900 years after the Bible was written.
D: The Word of God changes not!
God even spoke of the end of the World before the close of the Canon. Our ideas today do not supersede scriptural wisdom.
Homo B: Jesus said NOTHING about it. He did say a LOT about divorce. I think that it's interesting that 10 in 100 people are gay and 30-40 of 100 are divorced and Jesus condemned divorce but was silent on homosexuality.
D: Christ did not preach of the 666; that does not make it less real. Christ is the Word; and homo issues are made clear via the Word.
Homo B: I just want to be understood. I just want to understand others. Because in order for the pain to stop, we must understand what causes it.
D: Scriptures have already spoken of this sin. It is what it is. =-=-=-
Homo B: Thank you also for not judging me. That is a fine quality - one that I don't find that often.
D: Avoiding judement does not make a person of good stand.
Homo B: The amazing thing is, is that I hav no problem reconciling the fact that I'm gay with the fact that I'm a Catholic Christian. I have found peace there.
D: Peace that is non-RC. Peace that is against the RC establishment. Peace! Peace! when there is no Peace.
Homo B: What troubles me is the way most people react - much the way Nwong has - by throwing a few verses of the Bible at me.
D: Rob is actively against scriptural truth and RC teachings.
Homo B: I usually discern that people who do that haven't studied the WHOLE Bible and do these inspired texts an injustice and abuse the scriptures.
D: Railing condemnation with no scriptural integrity.
Homo B: I will wait for you. It's taken me 32 years to come to where I am. I know it can take a while. If you want to read about someone who wrestled with this, go to
D: An old experienced sinner. Advanced and advancing in SIN.
=-=--
Homo B: - I would like to go on the record as saying that you misquoted me. I said that JESUS said nothing about homosexuality. The quotes you provided do mention homosexual activity but do not say anything about sexual orientation and believe me, they are two totally different things. Get a clue! Get educated!!
D: How ridiculous!!!
Homo B: You are a shining example of the crap I deal with constantly.
D: Rough language, Ai!!!
Homo B: all I can say is that after 12 years of formally studying Catholic scripture and teaching I'm at peace with a very well informed conscience and your judgements mean nothing to me.
D: Such information is not upheld by the RC church or its Popes. Rob is determined to go against Scriptures/the Word.
Homo B: Didn't someone once say "judge not, lest you be judged"?
D: This RC trap does not catch true Christians. Christ taught that Christians ought to make righteous judgement. The Sermon on the mount is speaking to non-Christians.
It did not specify the extend of judgment.
Homo B: This is also my final post.
I come in wanting discussion and healing. Once again a wound that has been
too deep for too long is ripped open and the salt pours.
God bless you, I will pray for you.
D: Even the devil has a form of godliness.
=-=--=---=-
Homo B: So I'm posting another message. Since the debate
has focussed mainly on the Bible - and it's perceived condemnation of
homosexuality, here's an analysis of the six verses most commonly used. I
would appreciate your careful study of the texts, in their original languages
and in the context of the culture they were originally written for. That, as
any scripture scholar will tell you, is the only way to justly understand any
verse or story in the Bible.
In preparation for each passage, read the entire chapter. For Romans
1:26-27, read the first 3 chapters of Romans.
D: This is a trick of putting later ideas forward.
Homo B: Read Genesis chapter 38 for a clear picture of
the Old Testament attitudes about women, sex, the necessity of producing
offspring, the control of men over women, the double standard for men and
women, and other sexuality issues.
Genesis 19:5:
"Bring them out to us that we may know them."
D: The term "know" refers to sexual act, capable of child-bearing. It was first used with Adam and Eve, and then also used at discription of Sodom.
Homo B: Author's Note: "Know" simply means know! No hint at homosexuality exists in the original Hebrew. No later Bible references to Sodom ever mention homosexuality as the sin of Sodom.
D: This Author is not that of the Torah. Know does not simply mean know. ie: Adam knew Eve before he was mentioned of knowing her, and caused her to bear child. The reference to Sodom was dealt with right there. No need to find backups from later passages to effect the former.
Homo B: Many modern translations add words to the text to create the lie that the people of Sodom were homosexual.
D: Modern translations are also works of scholars. RC bibles are endorsed by the Vatican, hence the Popes.
Homo B: "SODOMY" is not a biblical word. Laws against sodomy not only violate the Constitutional guarantee of separation of church and state; they also use an incorrect and wrongly translated term for the laws. A "Sodomite" in the Bible is simply a person who lives in Sodom,
D: Sodomy was a word created later to refer to homo acts. Sodomy is not committed by Sodomites only.
Homo B: which included Lot and his family. The term "sodomite" in the King James Version of Deuteronomy 23:17 and I Kings 14:24 is an incorrect translation of the Hebrew word for "temple prostitute." (See the recent book by Mark D. Jordan: The Invention of Sodomy in Christian Theology. University of Chicago Press, 1997.)
D: The point is that it refers to sexual acts not pleasing to God.
Homo B: The average person assumes that the Bible clearly condemns male to male sexual intercourse as "sodomy" and that the city of Sodom was destroyed because of homosexuality, which is seen as the worst of all sins in the Bible. These assumptions are based on no evidence at all in the Bible.
D: Nonsense if this conclusion/assertion is based on the explanation given above.
Homo B: No Jewish scholars before the first Christian century taught that the sin of Sodom was sexual.
D: Point ignored rather than overthrown. Early manuscripts are very rare anyway.
Homo B: None of the biblical references to Sodom mention sexual sins but view Sodom as an example of injustice, lack of hospitality to strangers, idolatry and as a symbol for desolation and destruction. See Deuteronomy 29:22-28; 32:32; Ezekiel 16:49-50; Jeremiah 49:18; 50:41; Isaiah 13:19-22 and Matthew 10:14-15. In Jude 7, the term "strange flesh" is Greek hetero sarkos ("different flesh" and from which the word "heterosexual" comes) and refers to foreign idols or people. It is not homo ("the same") flesh or people. Sarkos is never used in the New Testament as a word for "sex."
D: Different, strange - refers to unnatural things/onces. What a soke screen!
ekporneuo - Strong's Ref. # 1608 committing sexual sin is mentioned in Jude v7 before coming to altered flesh(sarx).
Homo B: The word "know" in Genesis 19:5 is Hebrew YADA. It is used 943 times in the Old Testament to "know" God, good and evil, the truth, the law, people, places, things, etc. It is a very flexible word, as are many Hebrew words. In Genesis 19:5, the word was used to express the request of the people of Sodom that Lot should bring out the strangers in his house so that they could know who they were. Sodom was a tiny fortress in the barren wasteland south of the Dead Sea. The only strangers that the people of Sodom ever saw were enemy tribes who wanted to destroy and take over their valuable fortress and the trade routes that it protected. Lot himself was an alien in their midst.
D: Gen19v7 mentioned that this "to know - yada" is a evil way. Not what we normally used as knowing someone.
Sodom was very prosperour before its destruction. Not a barren wasteland.
Sodom was close to Gormorrah. Tyre was also prosperous, but they did not ask to know strangers.
Homo B: Lot's strange response to the request was to offer his young daughters to the men, an offer that seems to me to be far more reprehensible than any problem of sexual orientation. If the men were homosexual, why did Lot offer to give them his daughters? These hostile and violent people were heterosexual, and homosexual orientation had nothing to do with the incident.
D: Gay people also mix with bi-sexual ones. The fact that Lot was offering his daughters proves that "knowing" refers to sexual acts.
Lot was trying to right wrong by offering hetero sex instead of homo sex even when pressed by the situation.
See also Judges19vv22-27.
Homo B: Special note on YADA: The Hebrew word YADA "to know" is never used in the Old Testament to mean "to have sex with". People have been conditioned to think that "to know someone biblically" means to have sex.
D: The text on Lot already proves this use of the word for sexual act.
Homo B: The use of YADA in Genesis 4:1-2 to say that Adam knew Eve and she conceived and gave birth to Cain is followed by saying that later she gave birth to his brother Abel without any reference to YADA. Why? Simply because YADA does not mean to have sex.
D: See Strong's Ref. # 3045 for "know". See v2 - And she continued... A suggestion of repetition.
Homo B: It is a general term that describes many kinds of intimate relationships.
D: No other intimate relationship produces babies. Not even verbal-sex or oral-sex. No baby is conceived by merely thinking about it.
Homo B: I have studied all of the uses of YADA in the Old
Testament, and my personal conclusion is that it never means what we mean by
sexual intercourse. Just substitute a common slang expression for sexual
intercourse instead of the word "know" in Genesis 4:1 and you will see how
inappropriate the idea is. The Old Testament Hebrew writers never thought or
wrote in those terms. The Bible never gives any details about sexual acts. The
only clear Hebrew term for sexual acts is "to lie with," which is left without
any further explanation.
WHAT REALLY HAPPENED IN SODOM?
To twist the story to say what it does not say is to miss what it does say.
The story does not deal with sexual orientation or with homosexuality and has
no bearing at all on the issue of God's acceptance or rejection of Gays and
Lesbians. The story of Sodom clearly teaches that evil and violent people who
attack aliens and strangers whom they do not know or understand receive God's
quick and terrible punishment.
D: Attacking by knowing? Asking to know? Hospitality? What logic is that? What violence is that?
Homo B: The purpose of the story is to show that misunderstood, strange, or feared minorities in any community are in danger from violence by the majority when that majority is ignorant, ungodly, selfish and afraid. The real message of Sodom is backwards from the claims of homophobic preachers and teachers. The Gay and Lesbian minority in our society today is more like the guests in Lot's house who were protected behind closed doors ("in the closet") than like the frightened mindless mob that wanted to expose, humiliate and destroy people that they did not "know" and control. D: So, does Rob acknowledge that "to know" means to expose, humiliate and destroy people that they did not "know" and control? What scholarship is that? Where do we find this definition and deduction from lexicon, dictionaries and scholarship?
Homo B: Set the record straight! Genesis 19 is about the fear (like homophobia) and anger of a mob (like many misguided religious fanatics)
D: So God wanted to destroy an angry mob regarding them as unrighteous? And Abraham could not successfully plead for their excuse? Even Abraham found them unrighteous?
Homo B: directed against a small group of isolated strangers (like Gays and Lesbians today) in their midst. Sexual orientation is not the issue here
D: Who was the small group? Family of Lot? Family of Abraham? Or the City of Sodom?
Homo B: or anywhere else in the Bible.
Read also the strange story in Judges 19:1-30 of the Levite in Gibeah,
which was patterned after the story of Lot and the angels in Genesis 19.
Jewish teachers before the time of Christ never saw either of these stories as
having any connection with homosexuality or sexual orientation. Neither should
we.
Leviticus 18:22: "You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a
female; it is an > abomination."
Leviticus 20:13: Author's Note: Both of these verses refer not to homosexuals but to
heterosexuals who took part in the baal fertility rituals in order to
guarantee good crops and healthy flocks.
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a
woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put
to death."
D: Baal worship is not a mystery cult, not an agricultural reigion. Temple prostitutes in Baal worship were not exclusively for homo acts.
Homo B: No hint at sexual orientation or homosexuality is
even implied. The word abomination in Leviticus was used for anything that was
considered to be religiously unclean or associated with idol worship.
Because these two verses in Leviticus (18:22 and 20:13) have been used more
than any other Bible texts to condemn and reject gay and lesbian people, the
following material is given to help you think objectively about traditional
abusive use of the Bible regarding homosexuals.
The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is obviously a
hypocritical selective use of the Bible against gays and lesbians.
D: Really?
Homo B: Nobody today tries to keep the laws in Leviticus. Look at Leviticus 11:1-12, where all unclean animals are forbidden as food, including rabbits, pigs, and shellfish, such as oysters, shrimp, lobsters, crabs, clams, and others that are called an "abomination." Leviticus 20:25 demands that "you are to make a distinction between the clean and unclean animal and between the unclean and clean bird; and you shall not make yourself an abomination by animal or by bird or by anything that creeps on the ground, which I have separated for you as unclean." You can eat some insects like locusts (grasshoppers), but not others.
D: This is still kept in Orthodox Judaism. Can't fail to see that in Israel. Contact Ish-Hatorah there if you still fail to see that in Israel.
Homo B: Leviticus 12:1-8 declares that a woman is unclean for 33 days after giving birth to a boy and for 66 days after giving birth to a girl and goes on to demand that certain animals must be offered as a burnt offering and a sin offering for cleansing. Nobody today who claims to be a Christian tries to keep these laws, and few people even know about them! Why do you think that most people don't know about them?
D: Gentile Christians are not made to follow ritual law. Christians only follow moral laws of the OT for that applies to all. Complete OT laws are to be followed by the circumcised.
Homo B: Read Leviticus 23 to see the detailed regulations
concerning "complete rest" on the Sabbath day and demands of animal sacrifices
to be carried out according to exact instructions. Leviticus 18:19 forbids a
husband from having sex with his wife during her menstrual period.
Leviticus 19:19 forbids mixed breeding of various kinds of cattle, sowing
various kinds of seeds in your field or wearing "a garment made from two kinds
of material mixed together." Leviticus 19:27 demands that "you shall not round
off the side-growth of your heads, nor harm the edges of your beard." The next
verse forbids "tattoo marks on yourself."
Most people do not even know that these laws are in the Bible and are
demanded equally with all the others.
D: Not so according to Paul, the Apostle RCs go against in order to uphold the Pope.
Homo B: Why don't fundamentalists organize protests and
picket seafood restaurants, oyster bars, church barbecue suppers, all grocery
stores, barber shops, tattoo parlors, and stores that sell suits and dresses
made of mixed wool, cotton, polyester, and other materials? All of these
products and services are "abominations" in Leviticus. When have you heard a
preacher condemn the demonic abomination of garments that are made of mixed
fabrics?
The warning is given in Leviticus 26:14-16 that "If you do not obey me and
do not carry out all of these commandments, if instead, you reject my
statutes, and if your soul abhors my ordinances so as not to carry out all my
commandments ...I, in turn, will do this to you: I will appoint over you a
sudden terror, consumption and fever that shall waste away the eyes and cause
the soul to pine away; also, you shall sow your seed uselessly, for your
enemies shall eat it up." The list of punishments and terrors that will come
from not keeping all of the commandments continues through many verses.
Read what Jesus said in Matthew 7:1-5 about hypocrites who judge others.
"Do not judge lest you be judged yourselves... Why do you look at the speck in
your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? ...You
hypocrite!"
If you have been led to misuse Leviticus and other parts of the Bible in
order to condemn and hate and reject people, you are on the wrong path.
D: If, and what a big "IF"!! Rob has assumed, affirmed in his mind, that others are wrong.
Homo B: Jesus quoted only one passage from Leviticus: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." (19:18). Jesus used Leviticus to teach love. Many false teachers use Leviticus and other writings to condemn, humiliate and destroy. I know which approach seems truly Christian to me.
D: It seems B thinks he knows. And he has chosen those on his side to be Christians.
Homo B: Jesus never condemned homosexuals or even
mentioned anything that could be taken as a reference to sexual orientation.
Any charge against Gays and Lesbians based on the life and teachings of
Jesus has to be dismissed for a lack of evidence!
D: 2Tim 3v16,17. Rom 15v4.
Homo B: The use of Leviticus to judge and condemn anyone today is ludicrous and absurd in the light of the total content of the book. To call the content of the Book of Leviticus the "word of God" and try to enforce any part of it today is without support in the teachings of Jesus and in the letters of Paul.
D: 2Tim 3v16,17. Rom 15v4.
Homo B: Jesus in Mark 7:18-23 chided his disciples for
their lack of spiritual understanding. ....And Jesus added, "That which
proceeds from within you, out of your heart, defiles you. Evil thoughts,
abusive sex acts, ... : all of these evil things proceed from within and
defile you."
Paul also rejected the absolute commands of Leviticus in Colossians 2:8-23,
where he said, "If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of
the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to
decrees, such as, 'Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!' (which all
refer to things destined to perish with the using) in accordance with human
commandments and teachings? These are matters which have, to be sure, the
appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe
treatment of the body, but are of no value against human indulgence."
(2:20-23). Paul declared in 2:14 that Jesus has "canceled out the certificate
of debt consisting of decrees against us which was hostile to us; and Jesus
has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross."
D: For Gay people who repented and let Christ take over their lives, all can be forgiven. For Gay people who try to establish their life-styles as righteous, they left Christ no place in covering their evil.
Homo B: Many people have answered the argument that most
of the "abominations" in Leviticus referred to food by saying that the people
back then knew that pork was unhealthy, and that is why pigs were declared to
be unclean. If you follow that logic, you would declare anything that is
unhealthy to be an "abomination." We know that cigarettes, alcoholic
beverages, fat food and many other things are unhealthy; so why are they not
also called "abominations" and condemned by the rabid Bible literalists with
protests and pickets against cigarette machines, all liquor stores and bars,
all fast food outlets, and any store that sells anything that is unhealthy?
The reason is simple. The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject anyone is
impossible to justify in the light of the facts.
The use of Leviticus to condemn and reject homosexuals is absurd and makes
literal legalistic bible based religion look ridiculous.
D: Judaists still keep the whole law of the OT. So strange sexual activities are still legally condemned by them.
Homos stand accursed.
Homo B: To me personally, the message of Jesus Christ always has been good news for everyone. Personal evangelism has been my basic emphasis in the ministry since I became pastor of a small rural church in South Carolina in 1952 when I was nineteen years old.
D: The RC church does not have or support systems of pastors within its organisation. They run priests, bishops, cardinals... Rob might have been ordained by some organisation and practice his form of Christian faith that differ from that of the RC Church.
Homo B: Our little church led the Baptist Churches of
South Carolina one year in per capita baptisms. In all of my churches, both
Baptist and MCC, my emphasis has been personal evangelism. What is your
emphasis in your ministry? I personally have led hundreds of people to Christ
and taught other hundreds of people to become effective in sharing Christ with
others. During all of this time I have been homosexual. I have realized that I
was gay since I was a about 10 years old. God loves me just as I am and uses
me in ministry that fits me and my life as an individual. I pray that you find
the same thing for yourself.
Romans 1:26-27:
"For this reason God gave them over to degrading
passions: for their women exchanged the natural use for that which is against
nature. And in the same way also the men abandoned the natural use of the
woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing
indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty for their
error." Author's Note: All of this refers to idolatrous religious practices
that were common in the time of Paul.
D: No proof of that.
Homo B: Taking anything that Paul said out its context is like trying to drive a car blindfolded. You don't know where you are, where you have been, where you are going, or who you just ran over and killed!
D: Who is going to pity B for that?
Homo B: Paul's writings have been taken out of context
and twisted to punish and oppress every identifiable minority in the world:
Jews, children, women, blacks, slaves, politicians, divorced people, convicts,
pro choice people, lesbians, gays, bisexuals, transsexuals, religious
reformers, the mentally ill, and the list could go on and on. Paul is often
difficult and confusing to understand. A lot of Paul's writing is very
difficult to translate. Since most of his letters were written in response to
news from other people, reading Paul can be like listening to one side of a
telephone conversation. We know, or think we know, what Paul is saying, but we
have to guess what the other side has said. As 2 Peter 3:16-18 pointed out, we
have to be on guard against using Paul's writings in unhealthy and destructive
ways.
When I taught a college course in the Book of Romans, I decided to memorize
Romans, as Augustine suggested. The effort paid off. Being able to visualize
the message of Romans as a whole immediately cleared up a lot of Paul's
thought that I had not been able to untangle before by traditional means of
study. It helped so much that I continued to memorize the books of the Bible
that I taught in college courses.
The theme of the first 3 chapters of Romans is expressed in 1:16: "The
gospel is the power of God for spiritual freedom (salvation) for all who
believe." Paul showed that all people equally need and can have Jesus in their
lives. Paul's gospel is inclusive, as expressed in Galatians 3:28: "There is
neither Jew nor Greek, neither slave nor free, neither male nor female; for
you are all one in Christ Jesus."
Romans 1:26-27 is part of Paul's vigorous denunciation of idolatrous
religious worship and rituals. Read all of Romans 1:18 to 2:4 for the context
of the verses.
Romans 1:26-27 contains some words used only here by Paul. Familiar words
are used here in unusual ways. The passage is very difficult to translate. The
argument is directed against some form of idolatry that would have been known
to Paul's readers. To us, 2,000 years later and in a totally different
culture, the argument is vague and indirect.
Verse 25 is clearly a denunciation of idol worship, "For they exchanged the
truth of God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature and not the
Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen."." Paul at no point in his writing
dealt with same-sex orientation or the expression of love and affection
between two people of the same sex who love each other.
D: Serving the creature, such as certain human leaders in humanism and other isms. Serving cult leaders could sometimes involve unnatural sex. "Eg: The Family of Love".
Homo B: Paul wrote Romans from Corinth, the second
largest city in the empire and the crossroads of world trade and culture.
Pausanius observed at about the same time as Paul that there were over 1,000
religions in Corinth. The most prominent were the fertility cult of Aphrodite,
worship of Apollo, and the Delphi Oracle, which was across the bay from
Corinth. Paul's readers would have been aware of the religious climate from
which he wrote Romans and would have understood Paul a lot better than we do.
The word "passions" in 1:26 is the same word used to speak of the suffering
and death of Jesus in Acts 1:3 and does not mean what we mean by "passion"
today. Eros is the Greek word for romantic love, but eros is never used even
once in the New Testament. "Passions" in 1:26 probably refers to the frenzied
state of mind that many ancient mystery cults induced in worshipers by means
of wine, drugs and music.
D: Passion also links with orientation, desire and set mind. Burn links with desire and passion.
Homo B: We do not know the meaning of "burn" in 1:27, because Paul never used this particular word anywhere else, and it's origin is uncertain. The term "against nature" is also strange here, since exactly the same term is used by Paul in Romans 11:21-24 to speak of God acting "against nature" by including the Gentiles with the Jews in the family of God. "Against nature" was used to speak of something that was not done in the usual way, but did not necessarily mean that something "against nature" was evil, since God also "acted against nature."
D: A wicked twist of 2 ideas. It should be taken as Divine interference, rather than an unnatural intervention.
Homo B: One more word needs special attention. "Committing indecent acts" in 1:27 is translated by King James Version as "working that which is unseemly." Phillips goes far beyond the evidence and renders it as "Shameful horrors!" The Greek word is askemosunen and is formed of the word for "outer appearance" plus the negative particle. It speaks of the inner or hidden part or parts of the individual that are not ordinarily seen or known in public. "Indecent" in 1 Corinthians 12:23 referred to the parts of the body that remain hidden but are necessary and receive honor.
D: "Indecent" is a bad word here.
Homo B: 1 Corinthians 13:5 used the word to say that love
does not behave "indecently."
This word for "indecency" was used to translate Deuteronomy 24:1 into Greek
to say that a man could divorce his wife if he "found some indecency in her."
The religious teachers argued endlessly about what "some indecency" meant.
Some said it was anything that displeased the husband. Others were more strict
and said it could only refer to adultery. In Matthew 19:1-12, Jesus commented
on Deuteronomy 24:1-4, but he did not define the term.
D: Not nice to use Greek for OT first.
Homo B: Paul was certainly aware of the variety of ways that the teachers interpreted the word "indecency," and he used it in a variety of ways himself. To read into "indecent acts" a whole world of homosexual ideas is to abandon the realities of objective academic study and to embark on useless and damaging speculation that cannot be supported by the meaning of the word or by Paul's use of it elsewhere.
D: I do not see B's exposition being objective. Neither is it widely accepted. Certainly not be RC church.
Homo B: If Paul had intended to condemn homosexuals as the worst of all sinners, he certainly had the language skills to do a clearer job of it than emerges from Romans 1:26-27. The fact is that Paul nowhere condemned or mentioned romantic love and sexual relations between people of the same sex who love each other. Paul never commented on sexual orientation. As in the rest of the Bible, Paul nowhere even hinted that Lesbians and Gay men can or should change their sexual orientation.
D: Christians do not concentrate on Homo problem alone. There is also animal sex, child-sex, and bi-sexual problems, and so on....
Homo B: SPECIAL NOTE on Romans 1:31, where the King James
Version translated the Greek word astorgous as "without natural affection."
This is one of the characteristics of people "with a reprobate mind" (KJV of
1:28). The word for "reprobate" is more recently translated as "depraved" or
"perverted" in order more neatly to fit the sexualizing of everything possible
in the list. The literal meaning of "reprobate" (Greek dokimon) is "to fail to
measure up" or "to fail to meet the test" and simply means that the list of
things that follows is the result of a mind that has abandoned God. The word
astorgous, "without natural affection," is used only here and in 2 Timothy
3:3. It has nothing at all to do with homosexuality or with sex. It is the
Greek word for "family love" or "family ties" with the negative prefix. It
refers to people who despise and reject their family members. Rather than
being directed at homosexuals, it is a term that is directed at people who
despise and reject their own homosexual children and brothers and sisters!
Modern translators, knowing this, usually render the word as "unloving," and
the implication of some sort of "unnatural" or "perverted" affection is
removed. Many more translation corrections are needed elsewhere!
The use of Romans 1:26-27 against homosexuals turns out to be a blunt
instrument to batter and wound people who were not intended in the original
text. Paul clearly taught throughout Romans, Galatians and his other letters
that God's freely given and all inclusive love is for every person on earth.
Notice what Paul said about judging others in Romans 2:1: "Therefore you are
without excuse, every one of you who passes judgment, for in that you judge
another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."
I Corinthians 6:9:
"The unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of
God. So do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor
adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor
drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the realm of God."
Author's Note: The Greek words translated "effeminate" and "homosexual" do not
mean effeminate or homosexual!
D: See Strong's ref: 733, 3120 This Author's note has become his god and shield. It does not even supply lexicon information.
Homo B: I Timothy 1:9-10:
"Law is not made for a
righteous person but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly
and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or
mothers, for murderers and fornicators and homosexuals and kidnappers and
liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound (healthy)
teaching." Author's Note: The Greek word translated "homosexual" does not mean
homosexual!
D: See Strong's ref: 733.
Homo B: These two verses contain completely wrong
translations to create "homosexual ghosts" that do not really exist! Ghosts
may not hurt you, but they can make you hurt yourself! The homosexual ghosts
in 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 were created by the inaccurate and
intentionally misleading translation of two Greek words.
1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10 sound very convincing in including
lesbians and gay men in the most dreadful lists of depraved human behavior
imaginable. The fact is that the word translated "homosexual" does not mean
"homosexual" and the word translated "effeminate" does not mean "effeminate"!
D: This fact is supported by the "Author's note" supplied by Rob. This gives the impression that God has noted that. We do not even have the background of this Author of B.
Homo B: The English word "homosexual" is a composite word
made from a Greek term (homo, "the same") and a Latin term (sexualis ,
"sex").
The term "homosexual" is of modern origin and was not used until
about 100 years ago. There is no word in biblical Greek or Hebrew that is
parallel to the word "homosexual." No Bible before the Revised Standard
Version in 1946 used "homosexual" in any Bible translation.
D: It is wrong to conclude that other words such as "arsenokoites -Strong's ref: 733" does not refer to homosexual matters.
Homo B: The word translated as "homosexual" or "sexual pervert" or some other similar term is Greek arsenokoites, which was formed from two words meaning "male" and "bed". This word is not found anywhere else in the Bible and has not been found anywhere in the contemporary Greek of Paul's time. We do not know what it means. The word is obscure and uncertain. It probably refers to male prostitutes with female customers, which was a common practice in the Roman world, as revealed in the excavations at Pompeii and other sites.
D: It would have been used that way and found that way, if it was used to mean that way.
Homo B: When early Greek speaking Christian preachers condemned homosexuality, they did not use this word. John Chrysostom (A.D. 345-407) preached in Greek against homosexuality, but he never used this word for homosexuals, and when he preached on 1 Corinthians 6:9 and 1 Timothy 1:10, he did not mention homosexuals. See the full discussion of this in John Boswell's book: Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality - Appendix 1, "Lexicography and Saint Paul," pages 335-353.
D: Would it be shear coincidence or straight logical reasoning that the passages were turned to when preaching this subject?
Homo B: "Soft" does not mean "effeminate." The word translated "effeminate in 1 Corinthians 6:9 is Greek malakoi and means "soft" or "vulnerable." The word is translated as "soft" in reference to clothing in Matthew 11:8 and Luke 7:25 and as "illness" in Matthew 4:23 and 9:35. It is not used anywhere else in the New Testament and carries no hint of reference to sexual orientation. Malakoi in 1 Corinthians 6:9 probably refers those who are "soft," "pliable," "unreliable," or "without courage or stability." The translation of malakoi as "effeminate" is incorrect, ignorant, degrading to women, and impossible to justify based on ancient usage compared to the meaning of "effeminate" today.
D: Cici is some male trying to be soft like female. One major way of acting like women is dressing up in soft femine material like women.
Homo B: This incorrect rendering of malakoi and
arsenokoites as references to gender orientation has been disastrous for
millions of gay, lesbian, bisexual, transsexual people. This mistaken
translation has enlisted a mighty army of ignorant religious fanatics against
homosexual people and has turned many Lesbians and Gays against the Bible,
which holds for them as for all people the good news of God's love in Christ.
Evil homophobic Bible "translations from hell" must not go unchallenged.
D: How are the translators proved to be hellish and biased?
Homo B: The use of these translations by ignorant religious bigots to incite fear and hate against Gays demands a clear, academically sound, credible and easily understood response. Material given in this web site is only a beginning. Every Bible word that has been incorrectly used to wound, alienate and oppress people must be examined in detail and carefully exposed. God has called us to return the Bible to the oppressed and outcast people for whom it was written.
D: Should RC Popes be regarded as "ignorant religious bigots " by RCs?
Homo B: Three of the passages: Genesis 19:5; I Corinthians 6:9 and I Timothy 1:10 are incorrectly translated. The other three: Leviticus 18:22; 20:13 and Romans 1:26-27 are taken out of their original setting of condemning idolatrous religious practices and wrongly used to judge and condemn people of the same sex who love each other. None of these passages refer to people of the same sex who love each other. None originally were aimed at homosexuals.
Mankind does not become "FREE" after shaking off "GOD".
There is no WIN WIN without God (Yeshua - Salvation of God/YHWH).
And remember - - God answers knee mail.
2003
Joining in the African "roar" was Bishop John Rucyahana of Shyira, Rwanda, who issued this warning to the liberalizing contingent in Western Anglicanism: "We don't like your First World way of speaking ambiguous words and not being straight on the issues." Rucyahana and his colleagues were heard, and heeded: the conference passed a resolution (526 to 70, with 45 abstentions) that homosexual practice is "incompatible with Scripture."
Said Nigerian Archbishop Peter Jasper Akinola: "We cannot continue to be in communion with people who have taken a step outside the biblical boundaries."
When Episcopal bishops voted to approve a gay bishop, they dismissed the reaction as momentary homophobia. Liberals now say they will sue anyone who splits with the church. So much for inclusiveness. - Crosswalk.com - JVIM 13-10-03
1 Nov 03 Toronto Star:
"We're asking the Bible to give us guidance about something it knew nothing about," Hopkins said.
Robinson and many of his supporters say there was no understanding of homosexuality as an "orientation" in biblical times so those engaged in a homosexual acts were thought to be acting against their nature.
D.Lim: God knows it all. The Bible declares it all.
This is rejection of the Bible/Word being the revelation/inspiration of God. This is rejection of the Authority/Word of God, the standard for judgment at the last days.
Blatantly clear that homosexual camps are not the people of God.
"It is in direct violation of holy Scripture," Kathy Lewis said in a telephone interview Friday. She said members of her group plan to stand for the objection and then leave for an alternative service two miles away in Durham.
Voicing the same basic objection for a group of U.S. and Canadian bishops will be David Bena, the assistant bishop of the Diocese of Albany, N.Y.
"Our goal is just to witness to the truth and to do it in a loving way," said Harmon, an Episcopal theologian.
Los Angeles — Democrats aren't amused by Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger's use of the mocking term “girlie men” to describe some lawmakers, although a spokesman for the governor said no apology would be forthcoming. - July 2004
Democrats protested that the remark was sexist and homophobic.
“If they don't have the guts to come up here in front of you and say, 'I don't want to represent you, I want to represent those special interests, the unions, the trial lawyers ... if they don't have the guts, I call them girlie men,” Mr. Schwarzenegger said to the cheering crowd at a mall food court in Ontario.
'Girlie-men' comment called sexist, homophobic after California Governor lifts line from long-running Saturday Night Live skit
“It's a forceful way of making the point to regular Californians that legislators are wimps when they let special interests push them around,” Mr. Stutzman said. “If they complain too much about this, I guess they're making the governor's point.”
“To disparage a group of law abiding tax paying citizens is just wrong,” Mr. Leno said. - July 2004
Assembly Speaker Fabian Nunez, a Democrat - I personally am not intimidated or threatened by it, . .
Not having abided by the Law of God Almighty, such people also lie about their very being.
Confusion and trickery are tools used against us.
Jul. 21, 2004. 06:26 AM - Toronto Star
A Toronto couple is seeking what is believed to be Canada's first same-sex divorce. The women, known only as M.M. and J.H., tied the knot on June 18, 2003, a week after the Ontario Court of Appeal legalized same-sex marriage, but separated five days later.
Are homosexual act and desire mentioned in the Bible ?
"He who covers his sins will not prosper, but he who confesses and forsakes them will find mercy." Proverbs 28:13.
Marriage Amendment Wins Easily in Ohio, Ten Other States
Voters in Ohio and ten other states have spoken and have added a Marriage Protection Amendment (MPA) designed to protect the definition and unique place of marriage to their state constitutions. In Ohio, the measure, Issue 1, passed easily by a 62-38 margin. 3-11-2004
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
1st lesbian couple ties knot in Newfoundland
A lesbian couple from St. John's on Thursday became the first same-sex couple in Newfoundland and Labrador to legally marry.
Friday, 24 December 2004 8:32 EST
My Path to Lesbianism
by Diane Mattingly | posted 02/17/2005 09:00 a.m. Christianity Today
It was hatred of women that drove me there, and Christ in community that led me out.
Cheated by the Affirming Church
by Anonymous | posted 02/17/2005 09:00 a.m. Christianity Today
Contrary to what some churches teach, it is homosexuality—and not its suppression—that enslaves people like me.
Reject gay bill, Sikh MPs told
Mar. 28, 2005. 06:48 AM
AMRITSAR, India - The world's highest Sikh authority has admonished Sikh-Canadian MPs to block the gay marriage bill in Parliament, saying anyone who votes it into law will be ostracized by their community for flouting their religious duty.
Martin Regg Cohn reports.
New gay channel finding doors closed
Call me out-raged. Outraged that, when the overwhelming majority of Canadians believe that gays and lesbians should have equal rights, the country's biggest communications behemoths want to keep them out ... of sight. Antonia Zerbisias explains. - Toronto Star 19-4-05
D.Lim: Ever wanting to believe in or trust the Press? The TS claims that the majority of Canadians believe in equal rights for homosexuals, before Canadians have their referendum for the issue.
These articles are not intended to provide medical, political, secular, or other professional advice.
Draw near to God and He will draw near to you.
I, Rev. David C S Lim, 林志誠 牧師, can be reached by internet 也在互聯网﹕ Preacher.html
meshiah
e-mail 電郵 
jesussaves91@hotmail.com
A Life changing show
耶穌基督的救恩將人從根本而終極的惡中救出來，藉著救主，死亡不再是終極的惡，它已被置於生命的力量之下。
完全的善是由耶穌而來。
在天上和地下只有耶穌基督的救恩是唯一使人的罪得赦及與神和好的途徑。
There is no phobia in/by obeying God/Christ. - David Lim 2003
Perfect love casts out fear.
A March For Marriage Rally
「維護傳統婚姻大遊行」於四月九日渥太華國會山莊舉行，屆時參加者中午從最高法院遊行至國會山莊，集會於一時半開始，有來自各界的講員發表演說， 鼓勵兄姊抽空參加, 為神聖的一男一女婚姻盡出一分力量, 見證神的真理. 詳情請瀏覽www.march4marriage.
