just wondering

Just Wondering?

Does anyone wonder what, who and how will any Christian Minister support Gay lifestyle and denounce those who make any stand against such sin?

Here below is an example:

just wondering

Posted by Rev Sandy on May 18, 2004, 7:25 pm

The recent discussions of gay rights has me wondering...there is no doubt that the Bible speaks against homosexual acts, however it also warns of the sins of divorce. Anyone who divorces and marries again is an adulterer. Look at the number of divorces and "blended" families in our country. It seems to me that divorce is a greater threat to marriage than "gay marriage".

Who along the way since the original writing of the Word decided which passages still stand and which are swept under the rug as it suits the current day.

As far as gay "marriage" two couple that I know who had "Holy Union" ceremonies are not promiscuous, uphold each other spiritually, emotionally, mentally and financially; nurse each other through sickness; struggle to pay all of the bills and still come up with enough money to pay the grandchild's Christian daycare tuition; worry about how to pay for a roof and fix the leak in the bathroom; put up with hassles at work; and have to run out in the middle of the night to pick up medicine for sick children. They are life companions who are more supportive than the majority of "straight" couples that I know.

After years of devotion and care for each other, they still do not have the right to carry their partner on their insurance policy. Triple A auto club will not recognize the pair as both being members even though they share the same car.

If one is in the hospital, the other may not be allowed in unless they have thought ahead and written powers of attorney. Upon the death of one, the remainder of the estate does not immediately go to the survivor who has paid equally over a lifetime.

Who are any of us to judge? How many of you who judge are divorced and remarried? How many of your friends are? How many of you judge others, envy, gossip, bear false witness, work on the Sabbath, eat or drink to excess, turn your back on one in need when you have the means to help them? ...Then you are no less guilty.

God says man judges by outward appearance while He judges by the heart, the intent of a man. I feel these harsh condemnations not only come from fear and ignorance, they also lead us to turn away some of God's children from His house. How many homosexuals do we keep away from the Church by our judgements when we welcome adulterers, abusers, and yes, even gossipers.

Christ said that if we so much as harm a hair on the head of one of His little ones, it would be better that we be cast into the sea.

We are ALL HIS LITTLE ONES. As Christians, I believe we are called to love with a love that does not fear, that does not condemn.

Gay marriage does not lessen the sanctity of your marriage anymore than my eating chocolate cake affects your having pie. Only heterosexual divorce does that. If we truly are forbidden to leave our spouses for anything less than adultery and if we truly are adulterers when we remarry, then we are the ones deserving of blame in weakening the structure of the American family.

Again, who decided along the way for which sins we should stone another and which sins we turn a blind eye to without thought?

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Here below is a breakdown of the argument for elucidation of Christians:

Rev Sandy: just wondering

Posted by Rev Sandy on May 18, 2004, 7:25 pm

Rev Sandy: The recent discussions of gay rights has me wondering...there is no doubt that the Bible speaks against homosexual acts, however it also warns of the sins of divorce. Anyone who divorces and marries again is an adulterer.

DLim: Trying to bury one group of sins by turning to another?

Rev Sandy: Look at the number of divorces and "blended" families in our country. It seems to me that divorce is a greater threat to marriage than "gay marriage".

DLim: Cleverly avoiding examination of principles.

In my wedding ministries, all the divorced I encountered were not believers of Jesus.

None of the divorced and divorcing couple are Christians. They sinned or made mistakes while they were sinners, not knowing Christ or His Gospel.

Rev Sandy: Who along the way since the original writing of the Word decided which passages still stand and which are swept under the rug as it suits the current day.

DLim: Look who is trying to leave part of the Law of God, and change principles to suit.

Look who is changing subject from gay issues to some other responsibilities.

One just does not purify himself by pointing finger at weakness and sins of others.

One just does not purify himself by justifying non-repentance.

One just does not do the work of God or fulfil the Commission of God by leaving such work to God at the Judgment Day. Pray to God for wisdom if you lack wisdom.

Rev Sandy: As far as gay "marriage" two couple that I know who had "Holy Union" ceremonies are not promiscuous, uphold each other spiritually, emotionally, mentally and financially; nurse each other through sickness; struggle to pay all of the bills and still come up with enough money to pay the grandchild's Christian daycare tuition; worry about how to pay for a roof and fix the leak in the bathroom; put up with hassles at work; and have to run out in the middle of the night to pick up medicine for sick children.

DLim: Only 2 couple? Simply not scientific. Simply not a balanced comparison. Simply not objective.

The Bible does not settle or base this issue on promiscuouity. Being promiscuous is sinful. But acting out gay activities is condemned in/by the Word of God. And you want to go against God by going against His Word, and inducing others to be like you.

What kind of spiritual upholding outside the Way of God?

Any friendship can uphold friends emotionally, mentally and financially. A friend in need is a friend indeed!

Partners in any business relationship can struggle to pay all bills together.

Having some relative going to Christian daycare is no proof that any is Christian.

Many non-believers go to Christian institution for daily activities.

Experience of hassles at work could be of ones own making.

Wicked people, including murderers, liars, reapers, drug pushers, all need medicine when they are sick. This is no proof of sanctification/holiness.

Rev Sandy: They are life companions who are more supportive than the majority of "straight" couples that I know.

DLim: This Rev Sandy had picked on 2 couples to rule out the majority of gay and straight people and couple to make a case. Great Christian examples were not used for comparison. Many Christians even die for their faith. How is that for dedication? One can even find examples in Scriptures � Stephen, Paul, and James. Only one out of the 12 apostles died a natural death. And this John was persecuted, thrown into boiling oil, only to survive miraculously.

How many gay people died passively for their faith or course?

This is not a matter of suffering some inconvenience. This is a matter of life and death.

Christians gave up their lives and enter heaven.

Rev Sandy: After years of devotion and care for each other, they still do not have the right to carry their partner on their insurance policy.

DLim: Secular law pays little respect for the God of the Bible and the Bible as well. How is that for reason of offending God and going against the Bible?

Rev Sandy: Triple A auto club will not recognize the pair as both being members even though they share the same car.

DLim: By the design and mystery of God man join with woman to form one flesh.

By the design of God, man does not join with man, or woman with woman to form one flesh.

And this truth has no bearing on the policy of any secular organization, or auto club.

One just does not fight God in order to win a secular battle or policy. God reigns supreme. You know the term, "supreme"?

Rev Sandy: If one is in the hospital, the other may not be allowed in unless they have thought ahead and written powers of attorney.

DLim: This is just secular restriction. This has nothing to do with marriage, and much to do with culture. If secular culture demands that you have written power of attorney, this is what you need, and not trying or forcing a shortcut by changing marriage law and offending God.

Rev Sandy: Upon the death of one, the remainder of the estate does not immediately go to the survivor who has paid equally over a lifetime.

DLim: Anyone in America can draw up a will. This is actually encouraged by the legal profession. Friends, no matter how close they are, are not entitled to estates of friends automatically.

Rev Sandy: Who are any of us to judge?

Dlim: Just how is secular law and judges able to judge? By the power bestowed/resting on them. Same for Christians. Authority is given by God. Read the book of Judges.

DLim: We are Christians, disciples of Christ. Jesus Christ taught His disciples to judge.

Paul inspired by God to teach in Scriptures that Christians ought to judge, speak and act in righteousness.

Rev Sandy: How many of you who judge are divorced and remarried? How many of your friends are?

DLim: How many who advocate not judging or despise judging by the Way of God are sinners, non-believers, or Liberals picking and choosing passages of the Word of God?

How many of you are inspiring guilt trips instead of encouraging holiness?

How many of your fellow advocates and comrades are?

How many anti-God and anti-holy people have contracted horrible VD and sexually related disease/illness through your activities and orientation in question?

Rev Sandy: How many of you judge others, envy, gossip, bear false witness, work on the Sabbath, eat or drink to excess, turn your back on one in need when you have the means to help them?

DLim: How many of you who despise judgment live lives less than absolutely holy?

Less than 100% Scriptural? 100%? All of you?

Rev Sandy: ...Then you are no less guilty.

DLim: Look, who is inspiring guilt trips, against the teachings of the Word of God.

The sinners ought to admit sins and look to God for forgiveness, instead of judging righteous judges as unrighteous, avoid following the Law of God, inspire guilt trip, forbid stoning and punishment and repentance.

Those who do not repent and teach that repentance is wrong(not needed) are enemies of God. We face a/one Holy Righteous God.

Rev Sandy: God says man judges by outward appearance while He judges by the heart, the intent of a man.

DLim: Orientation and action of belief are from the heart and from intention. What comes out of a man defiles a man.

Scripture/Christ teaches that we should judge righteous judgement. (Jn7v24, Jn5v27, 30; 1Cor6vv2, 5)

Rev Sandy: I feel these harsh condemnations not only come from fear and ignorance, they also lead us to turn away some of God's children from His house.

DLim: Somebody is into feelings, ai!?

We even have wicked suggestion that blatant unrepentant evil doers are children of God!

From His house � meaning church buildings?

Rev Sandy: How many homosexuals do we keep away from the Church by our judgements when we welcome adulterers, abusers, and yes, even gossipers.

DLim: We have people suggesting all sorts of ridiculous ideas and reasonings.

Those who do not heed the Word of God, do not heed the Word of God. Simple.

Blaming others is just a smoke screen.

Who is saying that homosexuals would repent and turn straight and be church people if Christians do not welcome adulterers, abusers, and even gossipers? Who is guaranteeing that? Why lie such big lies? Sons/daughters of darkness! Wolves in sheepskin(probably stolen ones. Too hot for American summer and Indian summer in many places)!

Rev Sandy: Christ said that if we so much as harm a hair on the head of one of His little ones, it would be better that we be cast into the sea.

DLim: How much harm are liars and false prophets doing/producing?

Rev Sandy: We are ALL HIS LITTLE ONES. As Christians, I believe we are called to love with a love that does not fear, that does not condemn.

DLim: There are pseudo-Christians, spies, anti-Christs amongst the brethren. They are hidden reefs, violent foaming seas, passing clouds. Read James.

Rev Sandy: Gay marriage does not lessen the sanctity of your marriage anymore than my eating chocolate cake affects your having pie.

DLim: So, are sinners going to hell. Whey then should we uphold the truth in front of the wicked and preach salvation to the lost? It is because God commands us so to do. We are to obey God and live out righteousness.

We are preachers. Not dumb and selfish(just looking inward) heaven dwellers on earth about to depart without having any reaction with the wicked world.

Rev Sandy: Only heterosexual divorce does that.

DLim: Who is forbidding and ruling out homosexual divorce?

Who is trying to narrow social and spiritual vision?

Rev Sandy: If we truly are forbidden to leave our spouses for anything less than adultery and if we truly are adulterers when we remarry, then we are the ones deserving of blame in weakening the structure of the American family.

DLim: Spoken as if all others have done nothing, and they are altogether as white as snow.

The Law of God is not just about the structure of the American family. It is about spiritual matters, holiness and righteousness.

Rev Sandy: Again, who decided along the way for which sins we should stone another and which sins we turn a blind eye to without thought?

DLim: The wages of sin is death. Who is refusing to tell, admonish others of their sins and their need for salvation and repentance?

Who is not preaching salvation through Christ?

Who is not discipling for Christ?

Who is judging the preachers?

The evil sinlaiden ones!

Brethren, look out for idols.

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More condemnation and outcry:

I am a sinner!

Posted by Sister Leane on May 20, 2004, 1:06 pm

Anyone else here a sinner saved by grace and covered by the precious life giving blood of the Lamb!

I have read a lot here on the board today. It hurts my heart. So many of us, myself included are so pious and judgmental. Shame on us!

When Yeshua died for us, He died for ALL of us. To cover us. I have been divorced, my ex-husband has chosen the gay lifestyle, I have lusted, been glutinous, gossiper, liar, thief, used other for my own gain. The list could go on.

But Yeshua sees nothing!!

In his eyes I am as white as snow. My sin is covered by Yeshua precious blood.

This is not to say I do not still sin. I just try to make better choices this time around. I am saved by grace.

Thank you oh mighty El!

None of us can say we are better than others. Ministers or not we are still His children. We need to look in to the mirror daily and try to see what Yeshua sees. He loves us so much. His heart hurts, I am sure when we talk mean to and about each other.

I get angry with the Church?we shot our wounded. We are to follow the words of Yeshua. To hold each other when we are down, to lift each other when we are tired. To show each other the errors of our ways in love. To show those who are lost the way home.

I agree sin is sin; Yeshua does not differentiate from one to the other. He hates it all.

So as long as I walk on this planet, I will be a sinner saved by grace, Thank you Abba!

I am not asking for you to agree or disagree with me.

Just to Love Yeshua with your whole heart, body and spirit.

Leane

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Here below is a breakdown of the argument for elucidation of Christians:

I am a sinner!

Posted by Sister Leane on May 20, 2004, 1:06 pm

DLim: A mature Christian ought not call himself a sinner. The blood of Christ has covered his sins, and the Spirit Holy has effected spiritual changes. A new person is born.

Anyone else here a sinner saved by grace and covered by the precious life giving blood of the Lamb!

DLim: Christians are sanctified by Grace, bearing fruits of the Spirit, and wearing the full armour of God.

Leane:

I have read a lot here on the board today. It hurts my heart. So many of us, myself included are so pious and judgmental. Shame on us!

DLim: A self-criticism without repentance? Judged, accused, and blamed all others?

Leane:

But Yeshua sees nothing!!

D:im: God gave His only begotten Son, but saved the elect(those who believed in Him) only.

The rest will perish. The rest will be destroyed, judged, and punished/banlished.

Those elect/believers whose sins are covered by the atoning blood of Christ would be seen as white and sinless. Christ sees the rest who reject His redemption as sinful as they are, for there is no atonement for such. God is Holy, just and righteous.

DLim: Once saved forever saved, if one is genuinely saved in the first place. This salvation is substantiated by the renewing of the Spirit, and not by the old self.

The present perfect tense speaks of continuation. Here, a continuation in sins. Very serious matter worth praying for.

Leane:

In his eyes I am as white as snow. My sin is covered by Yeshua precious blood.

This is not to say I do not still sin. I just try to make better choices this time around. I am saved by grace.

Thank you oh mighty El!

DLim: How so? Unregenerated self-professed sinner?

Weak is a person, without power, when the gift of the Holy Spirit is not there.

DLim: We must also make consideration for those who in their weakness make wrong/mistaken confession. Christ even saved those who cannot speak or represent themselves correctly.

Therefore, we do not judge according to what people say at a time. We leave the judgement of the heart and the whole person to God who knows the heart thoroughly. Let God be God!

Leane:

DLim: 2Jn v9.

Standing on righteousness and light is not being mean. Being Godly is not being mean. Judging sin and warning of consequence is not mean. Differentiate between good and evil is not mean. Otherwise we have a very mean God.

Leane:

I get angry with the 鏠hurch?we shot our wounded. We are to follow the words of Yeshua. To hold each other when we are down, to lift each other when we are tired. To show each other the errors of our ways in love. To show those who are lost the way home.

I agree sin is sin; Yeshua does not differentiate from one to the other. He hates it all.

DLim: Not to hold sin and support/condone sinning. We are to point sin out and admonish our brethren.

Leane:

So as long as I walk on this planet, I will be a sinner saved by grace, Thank you Abba!

DLim: The Great Commission demands discipleship. Not just sentiment.

Leane:

I am not asking for you to agree or disagree with me.

Just to Love Yeshua with your whole heart, body and spirit.

Leane

DLim: Just asking everybody after railing judgement?

It is our business as Royal Priests of God to interceed for all sinners.

It is our job to call for repentance and baptize believers into God(Father, Son and Holy Spirit).

It is our work to pray for the sick and the needy. The Will of our Father in Heaven be done!

We are not wasting our precious time for evangelism and discipleship to condemn believers of God. We extend our blessings to them, and ask God to help us all. We can only get better in God/Christ Yeshua.

We pray that our brothers and sisters will grow in Christ, and not find themselves comfortable in any kind of sin.

We pray that our brethren will be completely sanctified by our Holy God who is above all enthroned on our praises.

DLim: Be Godward, God-centred and love God. Humble ourselves and lean on the saving Grace of God. His Grace is all sufficient for us. Know that He alone is GOD! Alleluia.

Praise Him/God/Yhwh. Praise Him with all we have.

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